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Works of man are fruitless and are not pleasing to God. God wants His people to bear fruit, good fruit - resulting of and from the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23, 25
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Without the Spirit Seed of Christ, the Holy Spirit in us, any fruit made on our own is not pleasing to God. It is only through His Seed that we bear the fruit He desires. Just think how much better the world would be if we all did acts of love born from the Spirit.
1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
John 15
vs. 1-2: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does not bear fruit he prunes, so that it will be even more fruitful.
vs. 5: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
vs. 8: This is my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
vs 16: You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last.
Ephesians 5 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. For you were once darkness, but now are light in the Lord. Live as children of the light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Twin, thank you for this post. You have really shown how Paul, James, and Jesus are in complete agreement.
I appreciate your patience with the people on this forum, myself included. You are always so respectful. "By their fruits you will know them." You are a good example of how a christian should treat others.
Katie
I would hope people understand that faith and works have their proper relationship to each one another and why I seem to be in both camps.
Jesus explained this relationship between the two in the Vine \ Branches:
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesso that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. "
Things to notice:
Jesus said we are already "clean" (pruned) not because of works but because of the "Word" ... (Scripture alone)
Jesus said "No branch can bear fruit by itself" ...... Only by God working through us can works be possible, not any work on our part .... (Christ alone).
Most religions attempt to alter this... that a branch can indeed work by itself to some percentage. It has some type of interjection of human effort.This is why there is no common ground with certian religions here and myself. You can't (according to Jesus) be "saved after all you can do".
Jesus said that it is possible for a branch to become unattached "If anyone does not remain in me,.. is gathered, thrown into the fire and burned" (sent to hell) ............. [this gets the OSAS and the UR's upset for obvious reasons]
Jesus said what the purpose of fruit is for:
my Father’s glory
showing yourselves to be my disciples
The works righteous person often uses works for a different purpose other than above.
Works of man are fruitless and are not pleasing to God. God wants His people to bear fruit, good fruit - resulting of and from the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23, 25
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Without the Spirit Seed of Christ, the Holy Spirit in us, any fruit made on our own is not pleasing to God. It is only through His Seed that we bear the fruit He desires. Just think how much better the world would be if we all did acts of love born from the Spirit.
1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
John 15
vs. 1-2: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does not bear fruit he prunes, so that it will be even more fruitful.
vs. 5: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
vs. 8: This is my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
vs 16: You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last.
Ephesians 5 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. For you were once darkness, but now are light in the Lord. Live as children of the light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Yes,
That would be contestant with the balance of the relationship explained in the Vine \ Branches.
The fruits' (works) purpose is for:
my Father’s glory
showing yourselves to be my disciples
I don't speak for everybody, but the works righteous person uses the fruit for purposes other than stated above. It is for that person to hear "faith alone" .
For myself, "faith alone" understand that the true faith can not help but understand that " as children of the light, the fruit comes because of the connection based on faith with Jesus.
It is a very close in relationship, it is separate yet not. Much like the banana and the banana skin.
Can't have the one without the other (banana and the banana skin comparing to faith and works), but we inwardly digest only the banana (faith)...and that is what God looks for in the heart.
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-17-2011 at 12:41 PM..
Reason: spelling
Yes,
That would be contestant with the balance of the relationship explained in the Vine \ Branches.
The fruits' (works) purpose is for:
my Father’s glory
showing yourselves to be my disciples
I don't speak for everybody, but the works righteous person uses the fruit for purposes other than stated above. It is for that person to hear "faith alone" .
For myself, "faith alone" understand that the true faith can not help but understand that " as children of the light, the fruit comes because of the connection based on faith with Jesus.
It is a very close in relationship, it is separate yet not. Much like the banana and the banana skin.
Can't have the one without the other (banana and the banana skin comparing to faith and works), but we inwardly digest only the banana (faith)...and that is what God looks for in the heart.
Yes,
That would be contestant with the balance of the relationship explained in the Vine \ Branches.
The fruits' (works) purpose is for:
my Father’s glory
showing yourselves to be my disciples
I don't speak for everybody, but the works righteous person uses the fruit for purposes other than stated above. It is for that person to hear "faith alone" .
For myself, "faith alone" understand that the true faith can not help but understand that " as children of the light, the fruit comes because of the connection based on faith with Jesus.
It is a very close in relationship, it is separate yet not. Much like the banana and the banana skin.
Can't have the one without the other (banana and the banana skin comparing to faith and works), but we inwardly digest only the banana (faith)...and that is what God looks for in the heart.
I think people are confused about what the question is. It is not whether or not believers should work. Believers want to work, because it is the fruit of the Spirit. The question is whether or not a person can be saved without works, and the obvious answer is YES. Salvation, and living a Christians life are two separate things, and it is wrong to suggest that people who found the truth on their death beds would be denied salvation only because they never had the chance to serve.
[quote=saved33;21318560]Works of man are fruitless and are not pleasing to God. God wants His people to bear fruit, good fruit - resulting of and from the Holy Spirit.
I'm glad you pointed out that it is the works of man (those devised by men) that are not pleasing to God.
So my question for you is this. Are the works of God (those devised by God) pleasing to God? I'm talking about repentance, immersion, prayer, singing praises, confessing Jesus as Lord, calling on the name of the Lord. You don't see those as works of man do you? Just curious.
I know that Jesus says (in so many places) that we are to do the will of the Father.
I think people are confused about what the question is. It is not whether or not believers should work. Believers want to work, because it is the fruit of the Spirit. The question is whether or not a person can be saved without works, and the obvious answer is YES. Salvation, and living a Christians life are two separate things, and it is wrong to suggest that people who found the truth on their death beds would be denied salvation only because they never had the chance to serve.
I also think that were the difficulty comes into is that the obvious answer of yes has a qualification to it.
It simple terms "faith alone" ( understood correctly) is what saves not on a combination of works \ faith. But while understanding that Jesus does qualify "faith alone":
" He [the Father] cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit .... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
"Death bed confessions" would quailify as yes because of this:
Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name.
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
God views "confesses of his name" as a work because that is the fruit which God requires. And that is why it seems that I appear to be saying both, because God quailifies "faith alone".
What happens if we do not "continually offer to God "the fruit of lips that confess his name " ?
A: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-17-2011 at 03:38 PM..
Elohim has already proven to me that Paul is a false Apostle. That's a fact. But thanks Katie.
And just how did He prove to you that Paul is a false apostle?
Kate
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