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Originally Posted by Verna Perry By making a WILLFULL choice instead, to go against any one of the commandments of God. God continually tests these individuals Finn...to be sure where there heart is on any given day! He tests them!
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
God does not tempt people to evil.
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.
You are only digging yourself deeper and deeper into this mire of mud Finn!...
Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;..."
Ecc.3:18 "I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."
Psalm. 66:10 For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.
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Originally Posted by Verna Perry
I keep His commandments Finn...do you?
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Originally Posted by Finn-Jarber
I don't think you do, as no one can.
Moderator cut: deleted God knows I do...and He protects those who love Him and are called according to His purpose, who keep His commandments....You are skating on very thin ice right now.
You, just like all the others who have been taught the false teachings of Modern Day Christianity, wrongly believe that you cannot go a full day without sinning...that you're full of sin...and nothing can ever change that, and God accepts that in you, that you are full of sin and cannot change...WELL! For your information, that is a lie being taught straight from the pit of hell!!! You CAN! be pure in heart!!! You CAN! walk righteously!!! You CAN! abide under the wings of the Almighty...protected and sheilded from all wickedness!!! IT TAKES LOVE! AND FAITH! IN GOD AND HIS PROMISES TO DO SO!!! IT TAKES BELIEF IN HIM AND HIS WORD TO DO SO! IT TAKES THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DO SO!!!
SO IF YOU HAVE NOT THIS! LOVE!...IF YOU HAVE NOT THIS! FAITH!...IF YOU HAVE NOT THIS! BELIEF!...IF YOU HAVE NOT THIS! POWER!..Moderator cut: deleted
Faith is non-meritorous and stands in contrast to works (Eph 2:8-9). The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. God does require a volitional decision to trust Christ for salvation.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-28-2011 at 12:23 PM..
Sadly, this is exciting to see fundamentalists at this forum argue this passionately over something that's not UR. See Verna, I told you this was a very common belief!
I've heard some Evangelical Free Chruches (that are somewhat Bapist based) justify the notorious verses of Hebrews 6:4–6 by saying its referring to people who never really had Jesus or the Holy Spirit to begin with. For example: Hebrews 6 and the Loss of Salvation
I'm not convinced either way on this issue. In my opinion, one should live as if we can lose it even if we can't.
Faith is non-meritorous and stands in contrast to works (Eph 2:8-9). The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. God does require a volitional decision to trust Christ for salvation.
I am not arguing the talking point of our choices. I am saying your point of view is in contradiction.
Making a choice is doing something. The talking point here is if there is nothing to do to gain salvation, then a choice is not required since that is you doing something to gain it.
Finn, Did you not see this post or something...? #60...
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Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Ezekiel 18: 24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
HE CHANGETH NOT!!!
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber Again, this can only refer to an unsaved person who was righteous only in his own mind.[/quote]
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Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Show me scripture...chapter and verse that proves this ^^^ outrageous statement of yours. I want to see it before my eyes Finn Jarber.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber and your beliefs and your interpreptions of the OT quotes contradict some 200 verses in the NT which clearly teach believers have eternal life.
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Originally Posted by Verna Perry
AND HIS WORD NEVER CONTRADICTS HIMSELF!!! SHOW ME, CHAPTER AND VERSE, SCRIPTURE THAT REFUTS EZEKIEL 18:24-26.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber The Holy Spirit gives assurance of a person's salvation, but if you believe what you believe there is no such thing as an eternally saver person, or a person who can have assurance of their salvation. If you are right, then the entire NT is one big lie.
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Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Full assurance comes from an abiding faith in Christ Jesus and LIVING! His word in our lives...this full assurance can be lost if one begins to live contrary to the word of God! Read Hebrews 10:22...HERE'S SOME NEW TESTAMENT FOR YOU! "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evilconscience, and our bodies washed with pure water"
Show me, chapter and verse, NT Scripture that refutes Hebrews 10:22. I want to see them with my eyes.
I am not arguing the point of choice. I am saying your point of view is in contradiction.
Making a choice is doing something.
No, it is not in contradiction. Works are 'doing' and are meritorious. Something that you get credit for. Faith is non-meritorious and you get no credit for simply trusting in Christ.
The issue is that you can't be saved by doing something for which you would get any credit. That is why you can only trust in what Christ has done on the cross. Christ did the doing. You do the trusting.
When it's said that you can't do anything for your salvation, it refers to meritorious works. Faith is presented in the Bible as being distinquished from works.
Sadly, this is exciting to see fundamentalists at this forum argue this passionately over something that's not UR. See Verna, I told you this was a very common belief!
I've heard some Evangelical Free Chruches (that are somewhat Bapist based) justify the notorious verses of Hebrews 6:4–6 by saying its referring to people who never really had Jesus or the Holy Spirit to begin with. For example: Hebrews 6 and the Loss of Salvation
I'm not convinced either way on this issue. In my opinion, one should live as if we can lose it even if we can't.
I was created to honor and serve my God and my King...and I hold close to my heart His words...His promises...and I trust Him to be faithfull, just and true to His word.....and I cannot stand it when a cult comes along and blasphemes GOD and says any manner of untruth about Him!
I know precisely how hard they TRY!!! to twist and turn His word...it is nothng short of EVIL!
For someone who claims to have "far more knowledge" you seem to have a very limited perspective and understanding. If you think the characterization of belief you presented is the only alternate to your misguided "once saved always saved" belief then you obviously have far less knowledge than the average Bible student, let alone a theologian.
Although you speak as if you have a protestant belief, it seems clear you still cling to the belief of the need for a "clergy class" to interpret the Bible. I certainly agree that it is worth while to exchange ideas with other people but when they set themselves up as having "far more knowledge" and yet are in disagreement with the Bible I am more than skeptical of what they say.
I do not know if you are just trying to ring up "hits" for websites, but your web link references to the ramblings of uninspired men have not been convincing. Their explanations are contradictory of this explicit and clear message of the Bible. And no matter how often you digress to the writings of men, nor how much you crow about your superior knowledge, the Bible will ALWAYS be superior to the contrived beliefs developed by men.
You cannot explain away that Hebrews 6:1-8 explicitly describes the saved, that it explicitly says they have "fallen away", and will be deserving of judgment of “being burned”. No matter how much obfuscation a theologian wants to create by "putting it in context" Paul's writing is clear, and there is no footnote by Paul that says, see a theologian (of the clergy class) to learn a "special" meaning for "fallen away" that I did not elucidate.
Your sanctimonious protestation that it is not worth your time to engage in a scriptural discussion does undermine your credibility. We see again that although you recommend that the surrounding passages support your assertion that Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches “once saved, always saved” you do not provide any support from the surrounding Biblical text, you refer people away from the Bible to treatises on that false belief rather than a detailed discussion of the Bible.
Referencing Hebrews 6:1-8
Show us in the surrounding Bible verses were the description does not fit the description of the "saved".
Show us in the surrounding Bible verse where "then have fallen away" does not mean fallen away.
Show us in the Bible where the illustration of the "fallen away" producing thorns and thistles and "ends up being burned" is a judgment of the saved.
I REALLY want to see how someone with "far more knowledge" replaces the explicit message of Hebrews 6:1-8 with the "implicit" message of "once saved always saved" using the surrounding Bible text of Paul's message. Your previous referrals failed to do so, so please step up.
I couldn't have said that better myself! Amen! and Amen!
For someone who claims to have "far more knowledge" you seem to have a very limited perspective and understanding. If you think the characterization of belief you presented is the only alternate to your misguided "once saved always saved" belief then you obviously have far less knowledge than the average Bible student, let alone a theologian.
Although you speak as if you have a protestant belief, it seems clear you still cling to the belief of the need for a "clergy class" to interpret the Bible. I certainly agree that it is worth while to exchange ideas with other people but when they set themselves up as having "far more knowledge" and yet are in disagreement with the Bible I am more than skeptical of what they say.
I do not know if you are just trying to ring up "hits" for websites, but your web link references to the ramblings of uninspired men have not been convincing. Their explanations are contradictory of this explicit and clear message of the Bible. And no matter how often you digress to the writings of men, nor how much you crow about your superior knowledge, the Bible will ALWAYS be superior to the contrived beliefs developed by men.
You cannot explain away that Hebrews 6:1-8 explicitly describes the saved, that it explicitly says they have "fallen away", and will be deserving of judgment of “being burned”. No matter how much obfuscation a theologian wants to create by "putting it in context" Paul's writing is clear, and there is no footnote by Paul that says, see a theologian (of the clergy class) to learn a "special" meaning for "fallen away" that I did not elucidate.
Your sanctimonious protestation that it is not worth your time to engage in a scriptural discussion does undermine your credibility. We see again that although you recommend that the surrounding passages support your assertion that Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches “once saved, always saved” you do not provide any support from the surrounding Biblical text, you refer people away from the Bible to treatises on that false belief rather than a detailed discussion of the Bible.
Referencing Hebrews 6:1-8
Show us in the surrounding Bible verses were the description does not fit the description of the "saved".
Show us in the surrounding Bible verse where "then have fallen away" does not mean fallen away.
Show us in the Bible where the illustration of the "fallen away" producing thorns and thistles and "ends up being burned" is a judgment of the saved.
I REALLY want to see how someone with "far more knowledge" replaces the explicit message of Hebrews 6:1-8 with the "implicit" message of "once saved always saved" using the surrounding Bible text of Paul's message. Your previous referrals failed to do so, so please step up.
Simply go back through this thread, find my posts, read what I have already posted, and make an effort to read with comprehension the sites which I have posted which all address Hebrews 6:4-8.
With your attitude and hostility, there is no point in bothering with you.
Go back to post #91 and see the one word reply to what I posted in post #80, and that will show why there is no point in bothering with certain people.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-28-2011 at 01:01 PM..
No, it is not in contradiction. Works are 'doing' and are meritorious. Something that you get credit for. Faith is non-meritorious and you get no credit for simply trusting in Christ.
The issue is that you can't be saved by doing something for which you would get any credit. That is why you can only trust in what Christ has done on the cross. Christ did the doing. You do the trusting.
When it's said that you can't do anything for your salvation, it refers to meritorious works. Faith is presented in the Bible as being distinquished from works.
But that isn't what you have said entirely.
You wrote
Quote:
You did nothing to gain your salvation, (you only trusted in Christ for your salvation.
Trust is faith and your saying that you get no credit for trusting Christ, but you also say that you cannot be saved unless you trust Christ.
That IS doing something that you are getting credit for. If you trust Christ, you gain salvation. Based on what you have said, you cannot gain salvation without trusting Christ. Sounds like a lot of credit is given for trusting Christ.
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