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What needs to be explained? Did you not read the first few lines of my post? We all agree salvation cannot be TAKEN AWAY. We can lose it by "falling away"
If you really do not understand it, I suggest you set your bias aside and READ the entire account, or even back to John 10:1-30. See it first for what it explicitly says ONLY.
(John 10:22-30) 22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”
He is making a comparison to those in the flock (saved) and those out of the flock (unsaved) (vs 26). He is saying no one can snatch one of his loyal (vs 27) sheep away. The entire context, even back to John 10:1 is about those in the flock as opposed to those out of the flock ("you do not believe" vs 25). Saved and not saved.
you will see there is not even the slightest possibility of it meaning quit, leave, or fall away.
No where in the verse(s) does it talk about someone becoming disloyal. No where does it talk about a comparison within the flock of loyal sheep. The entire context is about his loyal sheep (saved) as opposed to those outside that group (not saved). No where does it address loyal sheep becoming disloyal.
The verse ONLY explicitly talks about loyal sheep not being SNATCHED away.
Does it really make sense to imply he was saying loyal sheep can steal themselves? It is just not there!
So in examining what the verse says and ONLY what it explicitly says, we have to then ask: what is the reasoning for adding additional meaning that is not present. Is it a complicated metaphor? Is their some uncertainty about the meaning of the words (they could have two or more meanings)? Did John and the holy spirit just forget to add something important? If the justicication for adding meaning cannot be seen in the surrounding text, you have to have EXCEPTIONALLY strong reasons or a clear reference for saying a scripture chapters or books away can justify adding ideas not present in the original text
OR are we adding something because then it supports a doctrine we think is really neat?
Without waxing poetic and telling us about what you see as the implicit or interpreted meaning, PLEASE tell us where the explicit words of this verse talk about disloyal sheep or that loyal sheep are incapable of wandering away (falling away). Where does it say (the actual words), salvation cannot be lost.
Salvation cannot be taken away from loyal sheep? YES we all agree!
If you really feel that "no one can snatch them out of my hand." explicily says salvation cannot be lost then I think you need to take some reading classes. If you think it is implied you need to seriously ask yourself where in John's writing, in this context (these verses) can I support that it is an implication (and please share with us). Then lastly you have to ask, am I seeing it implied because I have a bias and am "interpreting" it because I want it to say that?
The only EXPLICT message in these verses it that NO ONE CAN SNATCH salvation from one of Jesus' loyal sheep.
There is not even an implicit message that could potentially refer to disloyal sheep. That is outside the context of these verses. Why try to add it?
We all agree that salvation cannot be TAKEN away, even by God. But that is a completely different scenario then us refusing and renouncing that irrevocable offer.
A quick one on Romans 11:29: even irrevocable has the context of taken or snatched. It does not have any application to denied, refused, or shunned, etc...
Can one who is born of God contunue to commit willfull sin and still receive eternal life?
jimmiej says, "Short-term (new believers), yes. Long-term, he/she was likely not sincere."
Truth - short term, if sincere in heart (God knows the heart), when a person first ask's the Lord to come into their heart, then they are given the Holy Spirit to give them the power during their "journey" or "process" of working out their own salvation with fear and trembling, to be able to be an overcomer of willfull sin. During this process, they may fall, but they should learn from that situation, get back up, dust themselves off, and go on TO DO BETTER. THIS NEW BELIEVER IS NOT BORN-AGAIN YET, because they still willfully sin<<<(this is what all the Modern Day Christianity false pastors and teachers do not teach you).
Since this "new-believer" has NOT YET repented (as in TRULY! REPENTED! - ONCE-AND-FOR-ALL-TIME, as in TURNED AWAY FROM COMMITTING WILLFULL SIN, as in CHANGED FROM THE "OLD-MAN" INTO THE "NEW-MAN", FORSAKING ALL WILLFULL SIN, as in KEEPING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOD - ALL TEN OF THEM! NOT FORSAKING THE 4TH ONE - TO KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY UNTO GOD <<<God said to REMEMBER! this commandment!...why?, because He knew it would be forgotten...and it surely has!!!), he is NOT yet born of God...he is not yet a child of God, because he still sinneth...and if you still sin willfully, you are not yet a child of God. But they can still turn from their wickedness if they have Godly sorrow, and a contrite heart and repent for their sins and become a born of God, child of God, and see their salvation...God says...in...
Ezekiel 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
...and...
Ezekiel 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
So...short term, therefore, NO! is the answer to the original question: Can one who is born of God continue to sin and still receive eternal life?....because they are not born of God yet, and they, at this stage, still willfully sinning, if they die in their sin, their soul is dead...for the soul that sinneth is a dead soul<<<Scripture.
**************************************
Truth - long term, the answer is NO!!! One who is born of God CANNOT commit willfull sin and STILL receive eternal life! Absolutely not!
Why...? Well. let's see what God has to say about that...
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
It only takes one willfull sin after you have tasted the goodness of the LORD and His word within you (after having been truly repented and born of God...born-again) to lose your hope for salvation.
This is the truth of God's word jimmiej...the truth.
Now you know.
God Bless you,
Verna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej I believe Scripture disagrees with you.
Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry Receive truth or reject it jimmiej...you have been warned. I tried.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej It's interesting that you won't comment on the Scripture I posted. Probably because it refutes your argument. Oh well, I tried.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
jimmiej,
I could "comment" on it, but that's all it is...scripture that you posted...it means nothing to you because you do not understand the meaning of it. What I have offered to you already...above...is more than you can handle already...so there is no need to waist my time or yours by going further or deeper...you don't believe the truth I've shared with you thus far...why even share the truth of Romans with you when all you will do is say, "I believe Scripture disagrees with you."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
OK, help me understand it. What is Paul saying in Romans 7?
Whoa there friend...we have unfinished business to take care of first...like I said, I could "comment" on it, but that's all it is...scripture that you posted...it means nothing to you because you do not understand the meaning of it. What I have offered to you already...above...is more than you can handle already...so there is no need to waist my time or yours by going further or deeper...you don't believe the truth I've shared with you thus far...why even share the truth of Romans with you when all you will do is say, "I believe Scripture disagrees with you.
I put together a truthful understanding for you on your previous, wrong answer to my original question above. You answered, "Short-term (new believers), yes. Long-term, he/she was likely not sincere."
You need to understand that is incorrect first, and understand the passages I shared with you already before I will go further with you.
Blessings,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 12-02-2011 at 05:57 PM..
For the benefit of those who truly wish to understand that Hebrews 6:1-8 is simply a warning about believers retrogressing from some previous point of spiritual growth and into a backslidden condition which can lead to maximum divine discipline of the sin unto death in which the believer is taken out of this life and home to heaven in disgrace, (NOT A LOSS OF ETERNAL SALVATION), I am providing Dr. Robert L. Dean Jr's. lessons on that passage.
Dr. Dean's Biography reads...
'Before coming to West Houston Bible Church, Dr. Dean was the Pastor of Preston City Bible Church in Preston, Connecticut. Prior to that he had served churches in both the Dallas and Houston, Texas areas and has over 35 years of pastoral experience.
Dr. Dean is a much sought after Bible teacher both in the United States and overseas. He serves on the adjunct faculty of Faith Evangelical Seminary and is the Chairman of the Governing Board for Chafer Theological Seminary.
Dr. Dean trained for the ministry at Dallas Theological Seminary where he earned a Th.M. in Hebrew and Old Testament Studies and later returned to pursue a Ph.D. in theological studies with an emphasis in Historical Theology. He also earned an M.A. in Philosophy from the University of St. Thomas (1987) and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Faith Evangelical Seminary (2002). In 1988 he was recognized as an Outstanding Young Man of America, and in 1989 was listed in the Who's Who in American Christian Leadership .
His academic training in Greek, Hebrew, theology, philosophy, and history enables him to study the Bible in the original languages and show how these eternal truths are as vital today as always.'
Go to the link above, locate and listen to the following audio or video lessons.
Hebrews 061b
Danger: Falling Away - Part 1. Hebrews 6:2-7. August 3, 2006
Hebrews 062b
Danger: Falling Away - Part 2. Hebrews 6:2-4. August 10, 2006
Hebrews 063b
How to be a Productive Believer. Hebrews 6:6-8. August 17, 2006
Hebrews 064b
Spiritual Fruit. Hebrews 6:7-8. August 24, 2006
Hebrews 065b
Abiding in Christ. Hebrews 6:7-8, John 15:1-3. August 31, 2006
If you wish, click on all 217 lessons which covers the entirety of the book of Hebrews.
You see, it is possible for a believer to become locked into a state of carnality from sustained negative volition, and apart from God's intervention, it is impossible for that believer who has backslidden to again go positive toward the word of God. God actually hands a person, believer or unbeliever, over to their continued negative volition. But the believers eternal salvation is NEVER at stake. He is eternally secure.
You can listen to a man with a doctorate in men's doctrines, that will still not make it Biblical teaching!
Paul was a true disciple of the Lord...You don't understand the truth - EITHER.
"You are mistaken because you do not understand scripture and the power of God".
Quote:
Bk of JN
My teaching is not my own it comes from the one who sent me.
Whoever chooses to do his will shall know about this teaching namely, whether it comes from God or whether I‘m speaking on my own.
Whoever speaks on his own seeks his own glory, but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him is truthful, and there is no dishonesty in his heart.
Stop judging by appearances, judge justly.
Yet I did not come on my own, the one who is true sent me, Him you do not know.
I know him, because I come from him, he’s the one who sent me.
I know the Lord and I keep His word
"Blessed is He who hears the word of the Lord and keeps it".
It is written;
"When a man fears the Lord, He will teach him the way he should choose.
He will abide in prosperity, and his descendants shall inherit the land.The friendship of the Lord is with those who fear him, and he makes his covenant known to them"
"The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life".
"Those who fear the Lord walk uprightly."
"The words of the Lord are upright."
Bk of JN;
"Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me possesses eternal life and will not come under condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
Truly I tell you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have heeded it will live.
For just as the Father has life in himself, so too has he given his Son the possession of life in himself.
And he gave him power to pass judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in there tombs will hear his voice and will come out, all those who do right shall rise to live, the evil doer’s will rise to be damned".
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Amen. And no one Includes the believer himself/herself.
Can one who is born of God contunue to commit willfull sin and still receive eternal life?
jimmiej says, "Short-term (new believers), yes. Long-term, he/she was likely not sincere."
Truth - short term, if sincere in heart (God knows the heart), when a person first ask's the Lord to come into their heart, then they are given the Holy Spirit to give them the power during their "journey" or "process" of working out their own salvation with fear and trembling, to be able to be an overcomer of willfull sin. During this process, they may fall, but they should learn from that situation, get back up, dust themselves off, and go on TO DO BETTER. THIS NEW BELIEVER IS NOT BORN-AGAIN YET, because they still willfully sin<<<(this is what all the Modern Day Christianity false pastors and teachers do not teach you).
Since this "new-believer" has NOT YET repented (as in TRULY! REPENTED! - ONCE-AND-FOR-ALL-TIME, as in TURNED AWAY FROM COMMITTING WILLFULL SIN, as in CHANGED FROM THE "OLD-MAN" INTO THE "NEW-MAN", FORSAKING ALL WILLFULL SIN, as in KEEPING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOD - ALL TEN OF THEM! NOT FORSAKING THE 4TH ONE - TO KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY UNTO GOD <<<God said to REMEMBER! this commandment!...why?, because He knew it would be forgotten...and it surely has!!!), he is NOT yet born of God...he is not yet a child of God, because he still sinneth...and if you still sin willfully, you are not yet a child of God. But they can still turn from their wickedness if they have Godly sorrow, and a contrite heart and repent for their sins and become a born of God, child of God, and see their salvation...God says...in...
Ezekiel 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
...and...
Ezekiel 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
So...short term, therefore, NO! is the answer to the original question: Can one who is born of God continue to sin and still receive eternal life?....because they are not born of God yet, and they, at this stage, still willfully sinning, if they die in their sin, their soul is dead...for the soul that sinneth is a dead soul<<<Scripture.
**************************************
Truth - long term, the answer is NO!!! One who is born of God CANNOT commit willfull sin and STILL receive eternal life! Absolutely not!
Why...? Well. let's see what God has to say about that...
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
It only takes one willfull sin after you have tasted the goodness of the LORD and His word within you (after having been truly repented and born of God...born-again) to lose your hope for salvation.
This is the truth of God's word jimmiej...the truth.
Now you know.
God Bless you,
Verna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej I believe Scripture disagrees with you.
Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry Receive truth or reject it jimmiej...you have been warned. I tried.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej It's interesting that you won't comment on the Scripture I posted. Probably because it refutes your argument. Oh well, I tried.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry jimmiej,
I could "comment" on it, but that's all it is...scripture that you posted...it means nothing to you because you do not understand the meaning of it. What I have offered to you already...above...is more than you can handle already...so there is no need to waist my time or yours by going further or deeper...you don't believe the truth I've shared with you thus far...why even share the truth of Romans with you when all you will do is say, "I believe Scripture disagrees with you."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej OK, help me understand it. What is Paul saying in Romans 7?
Whoa there friend...we have unfinished business to take care of first...like I said, I could "comment" on it, but that's all it is...scripture that you posted...it means nothing to you because you do not understand the meaning of it. What I have offered to you already...above...is more than you can handle already...so there is no need to waist my time or yours by going further or deeper...you don't believe the truth I've shared with you thus far...why even share the truth of Romans with you when all you will do is say, "I believe Scripture disagrees with you.
I put together a truthful understanding for you on your previous, wrong answer to my original question above. You answered, "Short-term (new believers), yes. Long-term, he/she was likely not sincere."
You need to understand that is incorrect first, and understand the passages I shared with you already before I will go further with you.
Blessings,
Verna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
You tried....You tried to sell your personal view which contradicts the bible.
Prove that Finn Jarber! With Scripture...I am waiting.
Passages such as Ezekiel 18:24,26 mentioned by the poster in post #59 are referring to temporal punishment. Physical death. The death penalty. They are not a reference to eternal punishment. Under the Mosaic law, the death penalty was imposed for various trangressions of the law. No loss of eternal salvation for the believer is in view.
Prove that Finn Jarber! With Scripture...I am waiting.
It has been proven to no end. There are over 200 verses which promise eternal life to believers, and your view contradicts them all. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be taken away or lost.
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Probably because it refutes your argument. Oh well, I tried. 
