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Click the link above and find the classes listed below.
98-Galatians-42
Falling From Grace. Galatians 5:1-4. March 28, 1999
98-Galatians-43
Eternal Security. Galatians 5:4. April 04, 1999
98-Galatians-44
Lordship Salvation. Galatians 5:4. April 11, 1999
For the believer to fall from grace means to fall into legalism. For the believer to be severed from Christ simply refers to being in a carnal state, rather than being in a spiritual state. The believer cannot lose his salvation. 'If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself' (2 Timothy 2:13).
Then why would Peter confirm Paul's words as Gospel? I think you're wrong.
From the letters we have from the Apostles it looks as though they did not understand that Jesus wanted them to use the same words He used and to actually take up His mission as the son of God / son of man. It looks as though they did not continue in His words or they fell away and took the wide gate.John however looks as though in His later years could have understood but was in exile and must have died shortly after.Christianity was meant to spread the word but now it must give birth to a new child as Jesus said.He said they would suffer in the world but then a child would be born.It is time for that birth. This was the plan of God all along that is why He told the disciples they could not follow Him then but at a later time. He was speaking to the disciples who would follow after Elijah comes to restore everything. I am now calling those disciples to gather an army for the Lord, to fear Him and walk in His name.We will be One in the Lord and destroy the sinners, to raise the kingdom of God and His righteousness.
Jesus said to spread the word of the Lord as He did with the same message His Father gave Him but Paul destroyed that message, even though it was meant to be, now what I am telling you is meant to be. It is now time to become the son of man / son of God.I do not blaspheme when I take Jesus words and make them my own, this is what He commanded. This website does not allow me to do this but on others I can, though very few.This is what is coming. As the Lord said, the Spirit of truth will speak what he hears and declare the things that are coming, He will take from what is His and declare it to you. That is what I do , I take His words and make them my own to glorify Him not me. To continue in His word, and take up His mission. Just as the word became flesh now the spirit has become flesh. That spirit is Elijah.Jesus spoke of a time when the son of man is revealed, this is that time. No one has ever done what I am doing that is why Jesus has not come back, He is waiting for the son of man to rise up.Time for the resurrection. The son of man is that resurrection, from death in sin to life in the Lord. Spiritual death and spiritual life.
Quote:
Bk of John;
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Now they know that everything you gave me is from you,
because the words you gave to me I have given to them, and they accepted them and truly understood that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me.
They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be One, as we are One, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as One, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.
I am the resurrection and the life; anyone who believes in me, even though he died, he will come to life, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it with eternal life.
Whoever serves me must follow me, where I am, there will my servant be.
...............you're making this pretty easy for me Finn.........
First of all, one will not receive eternal life unles they are born-again - period....
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Then, once one is a repentant, born-again, born of God, child of God...and then they turn back to their sins like a dog returns to his vomit, there is no more forgiveness for their sins...it's like spitting in the precious face of Jesus Christ. ...
Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
..."in the day" means, it takes only ONE! (1) willfull sin to abolish everything done righteously by the "Once born-again" Now wicked sinner.
Ezekiel "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Ezekiel 33:18 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.
Now to help you understand John 3:16...
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM...SHOULD NOT PERISH (SOUNDS LIKE THEY WILL PERISH (BURN TO ASHES) IF THEY DO NOT BELIEVE) BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
but!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IF THEY FALL AWAY:
Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
..."in the day" means, it takes only ONE! (1) willfull sin to abolish everything done righteously by the "Once born-again" Now wicked sinner.
Ezekiel "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Ezekiel 33:18 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.
WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT GET FINN...?...YOU ARE BLIND AND DEAF.
You can LOL all you want, and you can keep repeating the same arguments with the same verses, but your understanding of the verses has already been proven wrong.
John 3:16 and over 200 other verses prove believers have eternal life, and eternal life would not be eternal if your view was correct.
Your works and futile efforts to avoid sin ans obey the sabbath etc can do nothing to make you any more saved than you were the moment when you trusted Christ as your saviour aka were born again.
Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
See, "saved", as in "already saved". There is no such thing as "un-saving". Once you are saved NOTHING can snatch you out of God's hand, not even you and your sin. NOTHING!! Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation
Romans 3:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And now to quote your own arrogant words: WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT GET VERNA...?...YOU ARE BLIND AND DEAF
You can LOL all you want, and you can keep repeating the same arguments with the same verses, but your understanding of the verses has already been proven wrong.
John 3:16 and over 200 other verses prove believers have eternal life, and eternal life would not be eternal if your view was correct.
Your works and futile efforts to avoid sin ans obey the sabbath etc can do nothing to make you any more saved than you were the moment when you trusted Christ as your saviour aka were born again.
Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
See, "saved", as in "already saved". There is no such thing as "un-saving". Once you are saved NOTHING can snatch you out of God's hand, not even you and your sin. NOTHING!! Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation
Romans 3:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And now to quote your own arrogant words: WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT GET VERNA...?...YOU ARE BLIND AND DEAF
It is humorous you claim to be a teacher but cannot answer questions.
Maybe you do not understand the question as your reply seems to indicate.
Can you provide us the reference in scripture that indicates there is this division in punishment?
I do not mean a list of scriptures that you interpret being differing punishments, I mean the scriptures that actually define these differing punishments and the thresholds or boundaries between.
I can see how that was to general, but i wanted to ensure you had the latitude to answer any way you wanted. the focus was intended to learn more about the temporal punishment you cited.
I will even be more direct if that helps. Where does the Bible talk about temporal punishment? What is the Greek phase repeatedly used to communicate "temporal punishment". Where does it outline the specific failings to warrant temporal punishment verses other punishments?
Temporal punishment is a theology from Catholicism and most commonly related to the belief in purgatory. It has been integrated into the language of theology but it is not scriptural. I cannot find one scriptural reference.
Please show us!
I have never made any claim to be a teacher.
Temporal (referring to time) punishment (regardless of whatever Catholicism may mean by it if indeed that terminology is used in Catholicism) is simply divine discipline administered to the believer in time. Maximum divine discipline to the believer can result in being taken out of this life and taken home to heaven in disgrace.
I have stated several times that I am not bothering to debate. I started this thread to provide doctrinal information from doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers. I will stick with that original purpose.
I have also added a link to Dr. Dean's classes on Galatians which of course addresses Gal 5:4, which by the way was mentioned in his study of Hebrews 6:1-8.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-03-2011 at 01:08 PM..
Temporal (referring to time) punishment (regardless of whatever Catholicism may mean by it if indeed that terminology is used in Catholicism) is simply divine discipline administered to the believer in time. Maximum divine discipline to the believer can result in being taken out of this life and taken home to heaven in disgrace.
I have stated several times that I am not bothering to debate. I started this thread to provide doctrinal information from doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers. I will stick with that original purpose.
I have also added a link to Dr. Dean's classes on Galatians which of course addresses Gal 5:4, which by the way was mentioned in his study of Hebrews 6:1-8.
I appreciate your curt definition of temporal punishment, but that was not what was asked for. Examples of a specific (explicit) scriptural definition and application were what were asked for. That is not a debate it is merely a request for background information to establish that your post might have scriptural support instead of theological rhetoric.
I am currently listening to the presentations on Gal 5:4. I noted his mention of Gal 5:4 in his presentation on Hebrews 6:1-8 as well, but it was little more than a mention, hardly an examination or analysis of the scripture.
So far, Dr Dean has provided much less in his Gal 5:4 presentations in regards to the scriptural examination than he did in Hebrews 6:1-8. In fact he offered no real scriptural support as a for OSAS in Hebrews 6:1-8. I found his contradictions in regards to verse 1 and "repentance from acts that lead to death," (NIV) very amusing. He just can’t get rid of that old theological chestnut that the verses are about “works†of Judaism, although he says so himself further in the presentation. He actually provided no evidence that salvation can't be lost. He only repeated several times while describing the state of "fallen away": "but they can not lose salvation". Hardly a reasoned argument.
I hope someone does bring back something to the threads to discuss, it will be most revealing.
Click the link above and find the classes listed below.
98-Galatians-42
Falling From Grace. Galatians 5:1-4. March 28, 1999
98-Galatians-43
Eternal Security. Galatians 5:4. April 04, 1999
98-Galatians-44
Lordship Salvation. Galatians 5:4. April 11, 1999
For the believer to fall from grace means to fall into legalism. For the believer to be severed from Christ simply refers to being in a carnal state, rather than being in a spiritual state. The believer cannot lose his salvation. 'If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself' (2 Timothy 2:13).
I have listened to Dr Dean' presentations and I have to say again that he does a minute amount of scriptural analysis, and that analysis that he does is highly questionable. For instance, he starts out saying grace is not grace, suggesting people just do not understand the Greek. This is not true. He is trying to impart a meaning for its use in this verse that is lexically different than all others. Even you, Mike555, have acknowledged in previous post that grace is salvation. Even more comical than the false lexical assertions, he is evoking the "salvation" definition in previous and subsequent explanations of this verse. LOL!
When talking about falling away he offers several definitions that DO indicate lose or separation and a third, which is a nautical term. He chooses the nautical term to promote as the meaning (off course) for fallen away. I will not say it is impossible, but it is HIGHLY improbable that Paul would have employed a nautical term over the far more common usages for the word. If he had we could expect in the context a supporting explanation for using the more obscure (metaphoric) definition. There is nothing there for the reader to indicate the far less common nautical term is being used metaphorically. Even Dr Dean says Paul is using a very pointed and direct admonition in the verse, so why would he then employ obscure nautical terminology without explanation? It does not pass the common sense test.
There are many more weaknesses and contradictions in his presentations. If there is anyone who has also listened to these and would care to provide their opinions on the scriptural analysis for discussion I would enjoy the exchange of ideas.
I have listened to Dr Dean' presentations and I have to say again that he does a minute amount of scriptural analysis, and that analysis that he does is highly questionable. For instance, he starts out saying grace is not grace, suggesting people just do not understand the Greek. This is not true. He is trying to impart a meaning for its use in this verse that is lexically different than all others. Even you, Mike555, have acknowledged in previous post that grace is salvation. Even more comical than the false lexical assertions, he is evoking the "salvation" definition in previous and subsequent explanations of this verse. LOL!
When talking about falling away he offers several definitions that DO indicate lose or separation and a third, which is a nautical term. He chooses the nautical term to promote as the meaning (off course) for fallen away. I will not say it is impossible, but it is HIGHLY improbable that Paul would have employed a nautical term over the far more common usages for the word. If he had we could expect in the context a supporting explanation for using the more obscure (metaphoric) definition. There is nothing there for the reader to indicate the far less common nautical term is being used metaphorically. Even Dr Dean says Paul is using a very pointed and direct admonition in the verse, so why would he then employ obscure nautical terminology without explanation? It does not pass the common sense test.
There are many more weaknesses and contradictions in his presentations. If there is anyone who has also listened to these and would care to provide their opinions on the scriptural analysis for discussion I would enjoy the exchange of ideas.
No I did not say that grace is salvation. Grace is the means of salvation and is the policy of the justice of God in providing salvation for man based on the work of Christ on the cross. For the believer to fall from grace means to fall into legalism. It does not mean to fall from salvation.
And you are in no position to evaluate or criticize the teaching of pastors who are well trained in the original languages and in exegetics. Your attitude toward theologians was expressed when you stated in another thread that they attempt to 'explain away scriptures.' You've made references to 'doctines of men' of which you regard eternal security to be.
The mere fact that you think a believer can undo his salvation shows your lack of understanding of the simplest of Biblical truths.
I do not expect legalists such as yourself to listen to anyone. Legalism always attacks the principle of grace. Again, this thread has provided doctrinally correct information from two different pastors on the subject for whoever wants to understand that the believer cannot lose his salvation.
I will not waste my time trying to get through to you.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-03-2011 at 05:54 PM..
Though the purpose of this thread is to present what a Pastor/teacher has to say concerning the reality of the believers eternal security, I will repeat something that I've said elsewhere on the forum.
The sins of the world, past, present, and future, were poured out on Christ during the three hour period from noon to about 3:00 P.M. When the Father had judged all the sins of the world Jesus said ''Tetelestai'' It is finished. More accurately, ''It has been finished.'' Tetelestai is in the Perfect Indicative. The Perfect Indicative refers to past action completed with results existing forever.
Acts 26:18 'to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.
Hegiasmenois - 'have been sanctified' is a Perfect Participle.
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
Acts 26:18 is saying that the believer has been positionally sanctified (set apart, placed into union with Christ) through faith in Christ,and he is sanctified forever.
Hebrews 10:10 states, ''By this will we (believers) have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.''
Again, although the phrase 'esmen' - 'we are' is Present tense, the word 'sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means past action completed with results continuing forever.
Hebrews 10:10 is referring to Positional Sanctification which occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.
Now go to Hebrews 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
Jesus' sacrifice was offered for all time. Not just until someone commits willful sin.
Now see Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Teteleioken -'He has perfected,' for all time those who are sanctified.
By the one offering of Jesus Christ, those who have believed in Him have been Positionally Sanctified and Positionally perfected FOR ALL TIME.
No matter what the condition of the believer is EXPERIENTIALLY after his eternal salvation, POSITIONALLY, God has caused him to be Sanctified FOREVER.
Sin is not an issue so far as the believers eternal security is concerned. The believer will be disciplined for sin, and continuing disobedience will result in loss of eternal rewards, but no amount of sin will cause a believer to lose his salvation. God disciplines the believer as a son (Hebrews 12:4-6).
King Saul came to a point where because of his continual disobedience he was taken out of this life under the sin unto death, but he never lost his eternal salvation. When the prophet Samuel, long since dead, was brought up in a vision to King Saul, he told Saul that the very next day, he would be with him (1 Samuel 28:19). And Samuel was in Abraham's bosom - The Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. King Saul, despite his disobedience and being taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline ended up in Paradise. He never lost his salvation.
And having said this, those who think that they must do something to maintain their salvation still do not understand.
Legalists attempt to use Hebrews 10:26-29 as proof that the believer can lose his salvation. This is despite the fact that Hebrews 10:14 just got through saying 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
THE BELIEVER HAS BEEN POSITIONALLY SANCTIFIED FOREVER AT THE MOMENT HE BELIEVED IN CHRIST . Not just until he sins and doesn't confess it.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-03-2011 at 06:44 PM..
And you are in no position to evaluate or criticize the teaching of pastors who are well trained in the original languages and in exegetics.
Yours is the reasoning that enables people to be ensnared by the doctrines of men presented by theologians.
You may defer to the teachings of men but I prefer the Bible. I know enough to not be misled by Bible interpreters; no matter how many years of experience they have of misleading people in the doctrines of men.
I am in a great position to evaluate and criticize the presentations of Bible teaching. You like to suggest I do not have the knowledge or education, but you have no idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The mere fact that you think a believer can undo his salvation shows your lack of understanding of the simplest of Biblical truths
LOL! How typical! If someone does not agree to accept the deception you accept, they must be condemned and slapped with labels you feel are derogatory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I do not expect legalists such as yourself to listen to anyone. Legalism always attacks the principle of grace. Again, this thread has provided doctrinally correct information from two different pastors on the subject for whoever wants to understand that the believer cannot lose his salvation.
I have studied one-on-one with priests, reverends, and pastors from many denominations and the two you have presented are by no means exceptional. Dr. Dean contradicted himself so many times in his presentation that I got tired of writing down the timestamps from the presentation. And on that point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Legalism always attacks the principle of grace.
I thought I was attaking the OSAS principles of salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I will not waste my time trying to get through to you.
I find it funny that you say YOU are trying to get through to me. You will not even maintain a conversation and cannot support your beliefs beyond parroting the ideas (copy and paste) and posting links of theologians that you follow.
You do not need to continue a dialog with me, you have not really done so for a long time. However, i will continue to point out the fallacy of the doctrines of men and continue to assert the accurate reading of the Bible over bogus theological interpretations.
Last edited by BWW1962; 12-03-2011 at 07:16 PM..
Reason: grammer
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