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Subjectively speaking, in the present tense for many, that is true. However, that is not so objectively, nor will it always be so subjectively.
Mat 19:25 And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?'
Mat 19:26 And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'
How is it that you don't know or believe this truth?
And this:
Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
And yet, Jesus, the Son of Man, has told us that there is nothing that is hid that shall not be made known:
Luk 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
In time, and subjectively, the Gospel will shine upon all, and all will come to the full knowledge of the truth in Christ, and be saved. It is Christ's will that this happens.
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Believe me, my friend, nothing you say here, nor the scriptures you've quoted (very poor translations by the way), will prevent Jesus from doing what He came to do, namely: To save the lost.
And the lost WILL be saved. Now that IS good news!
Although the "saved", those who believe the Gospel, do sin, they are not called "sinners" as such. Here is how scripture refers to those who believe the Gospel:
Rom 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!
1Co 1:2 to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place--both theirs and ours:
Gal 1:2 and all the brethren with me, to the assemblies of Galatia:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with overseers and ministrants;
Col 1:2 to the saints in Colossae, and to the faithful brethren in Christ: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
They are called saints, brethren and beloved. They are also said to have been justified (Greek aorist tense, indicative mood), a completed past tense event, with continuing results:
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Now, contrast that description of the believer, called saints, with those of whom we are told that Christ is justifying, now, in the Greek present tense:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Do you see where I'm going with this? Those who believe the Gospel have experienced their justification (past tense) subjectivelyso, and are called saints. They have been imputed with Christ's righteousness, through faith.
Those who are, as yet, still in unbelief have not experienced or known their justification subjectively so, in Christ. Though they are objectively justified, they are non-the-less called ungodly, being as yet not imputed with the righteousness of Christ, through faith .
However, in-so-far as Jesus' having died for them (Rom 5:6), their objective standing before God is as one who is objectively justified (Rom 4:5). For God calls the things which be not as though they were:
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Do you see this?
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-12-2011 at 12:19 AM..
Here is the best part of our objective justification in Christ:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All those who are justified (this includes all the ungodly, Rom 4:5 together with Rom 5:6) will, in the end, be glorified. Notice, all the events listed in Rom 8:30 are in the Greek (aorist tense, indicative mood) as "past tense" events, including the act of being "glorified". All these are objective truths that will be made manifest and made known in time.
That is Good News. Believe it, believe the good news of the Gospel.
The Bible repeats 200 times that those who believe are saved, so it is strange someone who considers him/herself Christians would claim otherwise.
This is a universalist sandbox, so I will let them play in it. These things have been discussed a millon times. One day they say everyone is already saved, and the next thay say that you pay for your sins, and the third day they say there is an after-death salvation process where everyone cooked up in a lake of fire and forced into salvation. Go figure.
Someone asked Jesus the same question, and the answer was NO, NOT EVERYONE IS SAVED TODAY, ANDNOR WILL EVERYONE BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE. He said many will try to enter, but will not be able to.
Luke 13 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 12-12-2011 at 07:12 AM..
The Bible repeats 200 times that those who believe are saved, so it is strange someone who considers him/herself Christians would claim otherwise.
This is a universalist sandbox, so I will let them play in it. These things have been discussed a millon times. One day they say everyone is already saved, and the next thay say that you pay for your sins, and the third day they say there is an after-death salvation process where everyone cooked up in a lake of fire and forced into salvation. Go figure.
Someone asked Jesus the same question, and the answer was not NO, NOT EVERYONE IS SAVED TODAY, ANDNOR WILL EVERYONE BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE. He said many will try to enter, but will not be able to.
Luke 13 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
Maybe I shouldn't have put "all" in the title because the intent was to discuss timing.
So for non-URers.... Are those few already saved because god isn't bound by time? To him are those who will be saved already saved?
Maybe I shouldn't have put "all" in the title because the intent was to discuss timing.
So for non-URers.... Are those few already saved because god isn't bound by time? To him are those who will be saved already saved?
John 5:24: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 5:24: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Thanks for posting this here too...
If unbelievers are already condemned couldnt it be true that believers are already saved? Does god consider the date you believe as the start of your salvation or to him is timing irrelevant?
Clearly the Bible teaches that they are not: Jesus very clearly stated:
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Being Justified is a two part process.
1.Jesus pays for the sins of the whole world through His life, death on the cross, and his resurrection. Theologians refer to this as Objective Justification. ITs is real historical event. It is witnessed to and testified to by many.
1. But a person also needs to have faith, to have full confidence and trust in God for their forgiveness and salvation, and for their highest love reverence and trust to be in God Almighty.
This is referred to as "Subjective Justification". It is faith in the heart that cannot be proved as objective fact to anyone else. It is a matter of the heart. In summation, only those who are repentant for their sin and put their trust in Christ are actually forgiven, justified and saved.
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Believe it, believe the good news of the Gospel.
