Are all men already saved? (believer, praying, priest, Jesus)

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

The secret is in ignoring your perception of what is and focusing on what gods perception is of you. If god says you are sinless, free, loved, perfect because he is not bound by time then all your striving for that is in vain. Right? To allow yourself to see yourself as having achieved the goal (salvation, perfection) is the only way to achieve the goal. IMO.

When we feel good about ourselves we automatically (because it is law) attract good things and good people to us.
We also do good deeds when we feel good about ourselves. So isn't the scripture telling us to act as if we are saved/perfect because to god we already are?

Well, I have not achieved the goal, so ignoring it doesn't make it true, nor does it help my journey getting there.

I can feel good about myself, yet understand that striving to be better each day is not a futile task.

There are a lot of things that if I ignored them and just felt good about them, my wife probably would have divorced me a long time ago.

If I have a problem getting to work on time, ignoring that and feeling good about it and believing that I am getting to work on time will not change that in some jobs they will most likely fire me at some point.

We have to see the balance between seeing reality in the respect to be driven to be better as opposed to self degradation.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Princely

It should read like this;"It is impossible for man to be saved but everything is possible for God".

Actually, using the term "for" is not the correct rendering of the Greek term παρα, nor is the sentence structure correct. The meaning of the Greek word παρα, is: "near by" or "with". It does not mean "for", as you've erroneously stated.

Further, the Greek sentence structure for the first phrase is: with men that impossible is. In English: with men this is impossible.

And, the second phrase sentence structure in the Greek is: with God all things possible is. In English: with God all things are possible.

I believe it. But you fail to understand it.

You really don't seem to believe it or understand it, and no doubt the reason you've miss quoted it.

Yes the son of man will save the lost,

I'm glad you believe that too...

that is why I am here.

I see...why are you not proclaiming the Good News then?

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me. He has sent me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and give sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year of favor from the Lord.

Well then, my friend, proclaim the Good News, proclaim the Gospel. So far you've really not done so, at least not that I could find. You've simply told me you're the guy who has received an anointing to do it. So go do it . Tell me about Jesus, tell me what Jesus' death and resurrection accomplished for the world, and for you and I.

Should be "There is nothing that is hidden that will not be revealed."

Actually, the translation from KJV is literal and correct. The second sentence of the text uses the Greek word "γνωσθησεται" meaning to "know", not "reveal" as you've indicated. The word "reveal", found in the first sentence of Jesus' statement, is translated from the Greek word αποκαλυφθησεται, and means: to remove a veil, to uncover or reveal. It's the second sentence that we're discussing, shown below.

Luk 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

We read in 2Co 4:2 that the Gospel is (Greek present tense) hid to those who are lost (also Greek present tense). However, what is hid will be γνωσθησεται (translated as "known", future tense in the Greek), as Jesus stated in Luk 12:2. The Gospel will be "known", future tense, to those who are now, present tense, lost.

This is true.But it won't be revealed to sinners.

Of course it will. Not only will the Gospel be made known, but it's very glory, the glory of Christ, shall be "seen" by all flesh. Look here:

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

and compare that, with this:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

All flesh (by that "all men") will be born of the Spirit, and see the glory of Jehovah, Christ Jesus Himself, as revealed and made known in the Gospel. It's only a matter of time. Believe it my friend.

Then why don't you do His will.

I'm doing it, right? I'm proclaiming the Good News to you.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

All those who do right will rise to live.

Agreed...

[modeerf]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

Well, I never said I rested in God's forethought, I specifically said I am not there yet and I am not finished.

Secondly, I never spoke of not having free will, but if you would like to discuss my thoughts on why we do have free will and that will not prevent Gods promise of salvation from being completed.

Lastly, I never said nothing matters, that is YOUR words, not mine. Living right matters, that basis has made for significant discoveries and advances in the wonder I see in life, my spiritual health and my attitude towards others.

I used to be a barren believer, but since I realized how great Gods promises actualyl are, I am given new hope.

You may not see what I am talking about that way, but guess what? You are not me!

My post wasn't a judgement against you, sorry if it came across that way. It is a comment on the easy believism that has taken over Christianity as a whole.

At a small group study the other night, i was surprised how people thought that they needed to be better people, but regardless of whether they grew spiritually that it had no effect on their position in heaven or earth.

To me salvation is a decision to sin no more, and walking the path that leads to learning how to live according to the teachings and the guidance of the Holy spirit. Which end result should be overcoming sin.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by modeerf

My post wasn't a judgement against you, sorry if it came across that way. It is a comment on the easy believism that has taken over Christianity as a whole.

At a small group study the other night, i was surprised how people thought that they needed to be better people, but regardless of whether they grew spiritually that it had no effect on their position in heaven or earth.

To me salvation is a decision to sin no more, and walking the path that leads to learning how to live according to the teachings and the guidance of the Holy spirit. Which end result should be overcoming sin.

Well, let us be realistic. If I believe something that you would say causes someone to be a barren believer, how are you not suggesting that about me?

Am I somehow exempt from your conclusion because I confront you about it?

Wouldn't you want to prove your point to me so that I would not be a barren believer if I am actually one?

So lets us talk about that for a bit. How am I a barren believer for thinking that God has ensured my salvation? If I believe my position in heaven is secure, why does that mean I am a barren believer?

[ShanaBrown]

"Saved from what"

Matthew 1:22 “She will bear a Son and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Romans 6: 1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin…"

Sin and death are what need to be dealt with and Jesus died for the sins of all men, to set all men free from sin and death and reconcile us to the Father. Believers are the first fruits to be delivered
and are the group that God is operating today to reveal His glorious work and power. Believers have a special calling and an inheritance. (James 1:18, Ephesians 1:11-14) But eventually all will be delivered and all will be saved. (Romans 8) God bless.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

In a couple threads it has come up that men are already saved.

Thoughts?

I don't believe all men are already saved, but I do believe that through Jesus Christ, the enormous majority will eventually be saved. By "saved," I mean that they will end up not being condemned to Hell to suffer eternal torment. I don't believe that all will necessarily end up with the same reward in Heaven, though. Jesus Christ said that when we stand before Him at the resurrection, He will judged "every man according to his works." I believe that greater obedience, greater faithfulness, and greater righteousness will yield greater rewards. Finally, while I believe that many will rise at the time of the First Resurrection and because they accepted Jesus Christ's Atonement on their behalf, there will be many others who not only lived wicked lives but refused His offer of grace. They will be made to endure the punishment for their own sins during the 1000 year Millennium, but at the conclusion of that time, their suffering will cease and they will be allowed to enter Heaven (with fewer blessings than their righteous fellow men). Basically, no one would be saved were it not for Jesus Christ, but it is up to each of us how to live our lives, knowing that we will be compensated for living righteously.

[Theophane]

Are all men already saved?

How could that be, with the fallen state of humanity and the world? Would not saved men have create a better world? Would saved men have fallen from grace and suffered a separation from God?

[I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA]

Originally Posted by modeerf

Can we return this peace? That His Glory will increase? Can we comfort each other and give strength to others as Jesus has done and continues to do?

We understand that God and Jesus and the host of angels are there for us.

Are we there for them?

We should be sharing this with everyone and comforting others who are in pain. A good reminder to be there for others.

[mshipmate]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

That's kind of an odd interpretation... It would seem, if what you're telling us is true, Peter's keys on earth would have preeminence over what happens in heaven. I don't think that is what Mat 16:19 or Mat 18:18 is actually telling us. Here is how these texts read, using the YLT:

Mat 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

Mat 18:18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

If you'll notice, the verbs "bind" and "loose" (those things being done on earth with Peter's keys) are in the Greek aorist tense, subjunctive mood. Those acts are simple occurrence (punctiliar events, if you will), without regard to timing.

The verb translated as "shall be" is in the Greek future tense.

However, the verbs "bound" and "loosed" (those things done in Heaven) are in the Greek perfect tense. A completed event, acts that have already been completed in Heaven.

The keys given to Peter are simply for locking or unlocking whatever has already been, past tense, locked or unlocked in Heaven. And whatever Peter locks or unlocks, "shall be", future tense, locked or unlocked on earth. That is what those texts actually say..

The 'keys' to the kingdom of heaven are wisdom and discernment which is given by the Holy Spirit to apply to the written Word of God for our every day living.

Binding and loosing has nothing to do with forgiving of sins, etc etc but has to do with the application of the written Word and God's laws to our lives.

In other words what God prohibits/obligates [bound] and what God allows/is allowed [loosed]. Acts 15:28,29 is a good example of binding/loosing.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA

We should be sharing this with everyone and comforting others who are in pain. A good reminder to be there for others.

Amen!