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Now back to children and what the clear teaching of Scripture is in regards to them:
(1)The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Ezekiel 18:20); every person is responsible for his own conduct (Romans 14:12).
(2) sinfulness begans in one’s life [characterized] as youth (Genesis 8:21; Jeremiah 3:25).
(3) A child needs to a level of maturity before he/she is able to choose between evil/good (Isaiah 7:15, 16).
(4) And most importantly. Who did Christ use as models? He used children as ones to aspire [to enter the kingdom] (Matthew 18:3; 19:14; 1 Corinthians 14:20.
(5) The human spirit is not inherited from one’s parents; I'ts given by God at birth (Ecc.12:7; Hebrews 12:9).
Now back to Psa. 51:5. The above shows us David was speaking of being born into a sinful world, a sinful enviorment just as all of us are.
And last but not least think about this:
The Saviour was both conceived/brought forth from a human mother (Luke 1:31). If original sin is inherited from one’s mother, Christ had it!!!
Yes.. taking a part of scripture for ones own advantage is not correct.
Ezekiel 18:20 ... the parts you left out (in bold)
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him
About Mary ... if you are referencing Mary as humans having a part of the equation for then for Jesus to be sinless... then Mary would have to been sinless, then her parents had to be...and on and on.
Once again, it's the alternative option that decision theology makes it error. God came upon Mary despite Mary's sinfulness ... just as faith comes upon the sinner. We have nothing to do with choosing faith as Mary had in choosing herself to be the mother of Jesus.
Listen we raised 5 kids. I know full well an infant is born selfish, but that is so it can survive. It wasn't long before we understood their strong will have to be 'broken' and they needed to learn obedience. If for no other reason than they would some day have the wisdom/knowledge to know they must obey their Heavenly Father.
Disobedience is a learned action and if not corrected it continues to adulthood.
Neither of these has to do with original sin. A baby does not sin in being selfish at birth.
And BTW, IF man is born with original sin then Christ, who was born of a human mother, inherited it also.
How do toddlers learn disobedience? Who teaches them?
Christ was born of a virgin, through the Holy Spirit - not through a man and a woman as everyone else is (except Adam and Eve). That's the difference.
And because of this original sin God's law (which shows no partiality) declares all humans "dead". That condition begins at conception Psalm 51:5. As Jesus said "flesh gives birth to flesh ..... but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit" We have no more control over when we are conceived physically as when we are spiritually.
What it comes down to is that Reformed churches expect individuals to make a dramatic decision to "commit" themselves to Jesus Christ. The Bible rejects the "decision theology", it teaches that that Faith receives the gift of salvation rather than causes salvation.
Believing on Christ for eternal salvation has nothing to do with 'Commitment' on the part of the believer. Commitment is necessary after salvation if the believer is to mature spiritually. But it has nothing to do with eternal salvation itself.
God selected those who have been physically born to be born. Of those born, those who are elected and predestined are those who God in His foreknowlege knew from eternity past would place their faith in Christ.
Faith in Christ is non-meritorius. The merit is in Jesus Christ. Faith indeed receives the offer of the free gift of salvation. But you must make the decision to place your trust in Christ in response to the gospel message. That is how you receive the gift of salvation.
Acts 16:30 ''...Sirs, what must I do to be saved. 31] And they said, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved? ''
I have already shown you three verses in which the invitation is extended to come to Christ. I will not repeat those verses here. The decision is to respond to the gospel by placing your trust in Christ, or to refuse to trust in Christ. It is the greatest decision that any member of the human race can ever make.
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Actually MIke I didn't say God was unfair. That would imply wrong doing on God's part.... I said God is not fair in dealing with us. For as the scripture declares:
Psalm 103:10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
Psalm 130:3 If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, whocouldstand?
The Psalmist is acknowledging that God isn't fair. Psalm 103:10
God's law holds all people accountable Romans 3:19
" each of us will give an account of himself to God." Romans 14:12
That is why Paul states: "But the gift is not like the trespass."
We are believers because of God's love and mercy... not because of our abilitiy to chose
In the Garden:
Humans chose to listen to the Devil
Humans chose to eat the forbiden fruit
Humans chose to blame God eventually of being unfair
because of their sinful condition, humans chose to run away and hide from God ... not towards him.
Again, do a word search. Stop inserting your human logic conclusions. No where will you find the phrase "God is fair"..... that's because Mike, there was nothing enduring about you .. or me .... or any believer.
God reaches out to man. Man can respond positively or react negatively.
At the point of gospel hearing the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11). The unbeliever can resist the Holy Spirit's conviction, or he can respond to it.
It is impossible for God who is fair to be unfair in anything that He does. God does not treat us as our sins deserve because Jesus volunteered to enter the world as a member of the human race and pay the penalty for our sins. It is a matter of divine justice and fairness.
Quote:
Faith is a gift of God by his grace and mercy .... nothing else.
If you think a believer can "volitional decision " ( aka decision theology), then that is to undo the clear instruction of Jesus as if He wanted to say,
“Apart from Me you can do nothing except invite Me into your heart.”
instead of what he actually spoke:
"Whoever abides in Me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” [John 15:5]
No. There are three systems of perception. 1.) Rationalism 2.) Empiricism 3.) Faith. Through these three systems of perception which God gave to man, man relates to and understands reality. Of the three, only faith is non-meritorious. God gave everyone the ability to express faith but it is the responsibility of the gospel hearer to respond to the gospel with faith directed toward Jesus Christ. A person can say 'yes' or he can say 'no'. It is his choice.
John 15:5 ''I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him; he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.''
Abiding in Christ refers to the believers daily rapport with Christ. It refers to being in fellowship under the control of the Holy Spirit through naming your sins as per 1 John 1:9 and then walking in the Spirit. Only when in fellowship can a believer produce works of 'gold, silver and precious stones' which will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:12-15).
That passage has nothing to do with being able to respond to the gospel by placing your faith in Christ.
Originally Posted by Mike555
I'm not sure who you addressed this reply to, but Jesus paid the penalty for sin and therefore sin is not the issue in salvation. Everyones personal sins were imputed to Christ on the cross where He paid for them. The only issue in eternal salvation is 'what think you of Christ'? A baby has no ability to comprehend the concept of God and the issue of salvation. Therefore, although a baby is born spiritually dead which means that he is separated from God in time, that separation in time will not be extended into eternity. He is still automatically eternally saved based upon the finished work of Christ on the cross if he dies before reaching God consciousness and therefore being held responsible by God for his decision.
Now once a person reaches God consciousness which simply means being able to understand the concept of a Supreme Being, God then holds that person responsible for his volitional response to that awareness. If a person is positive at the point of God consciousness then God will make sure that he has a chance to hear the gospel so that he can make a choice concerning Jesus Christ. If he does not place his faith in Christ before he dies, he will (now read this carefully) die in his sins as per John 8:24, BUT he will not be judged for those sins because those sins were already judged at the cross. Instead, when he stands before Jesus at the great white throne judgment he will be judged on the basis of his deeds which are the production of his imperfect relative human righteousness which God must reject (Rev 20:11-15). The unbeliever does not have the imputation of God's own Perfect Righteousness and by default must stand on his own righteousness which means that he will be eternally separated from God.
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I think you need to reread your own post Mike. You did say this.
I don't understand why you think that anything I said in that post implies that God imputed the old sin nature to man, which without going back to look is what I think you said.
The old sin nature is genetically transmitted by the male when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Because there is a natural affinity between Adam's original sin and the genetically transmitted old sin nature, God imputes Adam's original sin to that old sin nature resulting in spiritual death at the moment a baby is born.
Because the penalty of sin is indeed spiritual death which eventually resulted in physical death for Adam some 900 years later, and therefore everyone is born spiritually dead, (and spiritual death means separation from God in time) Jesus had to die spiritually as He was being judged for the sins of the world during His last three hours on the cross from 12:00 noon to about 3:00 PM. Jesus was still physically alive when He had finished paying for mankind's personal sins. While He was bearing our sins in His body His relationship with the Father was broken - spiritual death. His work with regard to paying the penalty for sin having been completed He as an act of His own volition dismissed His spirit and died physically. This was necessary so that His body could be resurrected making Jesus the first member of the human race to be resurrected. People before Christ had been resuscitated physically only to die again, but no one had ever been resuscitated before Jesus Christ.
Mike, can you show with scripture that babies are born spiritually dead? I don't see that they are. I see them as created in God's image, pure and innocent. Do you think God created Adam with a sinful nature? I don't believe you do. I believe Adam acted on choice. I believe we are no different.
What is sin? Sin is breaking one of God's Laws/commandments. We had 5 "babies" and I'm here to tell ya not one of them could or did break even one of them; as an infant. [well except perhaps getting 'mom' up in the middle of the night ]
I had five perfect, pure and innocent babies also.
" Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. " Psalm 51:5
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not evenone"Romans 3:10
For the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23
or is it just a matter of simply wantonly ignore it because otherwise God wouldn't be "fair" that a baby dies because of original sin.
The lie is in your literal translation of Psalms. I've pointed this out to you before but you don't want to listen. If you choose to translate Psalms literally instead of figuratively, then you need to be consistent, not just when it suits you.
You keep insisting God is unfair. Let me remind you that "just" is synonomous with fair. Don't take my word for it, look it up. If you believe God is unfair, then it follows that you believe He is unjust.
Originally Posted by Mike555
I'm not sure who you addressed this reply to, but Jesus paid the penalty for sin and therefore sin is not the issue in salvation. Everyones personal sins were imputed to Christ on the cross where He paid for them. The only issue in eternal salvation is 'what think you of Christ'? A baby has no ability to comprehend the concept of God and the issue of salvation. Therefore, although a baby is born spiritually dead which means that he is separated from God in time, that separation in time will not be extended into eternity. He is still automatically eternally saved based upon the finished work of Christ on the cross if he dies before reaching God consciousness and therefore being held responsible by God for his decision. .
There is still no basis for saying "He is still automatically eternally saved " from scripture.. that is purely your conjecture.
Faith is a gift from God. It is God who brings to life the spiritually dead. Case in point is Ezekiel 37 where in God says:
“Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel."
No matter how one can rationalize it away .... no one can honestly claim that "the whole house of Israel" exempts babies.
If you don't see it, what more can be said.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-20-2011 at 03:07 PM..
Mike, can you show with scripture that babies are born spiritually dead? I don't see that they are. I see them as created in God's image, pure and innocent. Do you think God created Adam with a sinful nature? I don't believe you do. I believe Adam acted on choice. I believe we are no different.
Katie
I want to give a fairly complete answer to why babies are born already spiritually dead. Remember though that anyone who dies without ever having the ability to comprehend the concept of God is automatically saved based on the finished work of Christ on the cross.
You are not going to find a passage which directly states that. You have to understand the principle that because the entire human race was seminally in Adam - he is the federal head of the human race, the entire human race bears the consequences of his original sin. God did this out of grace. The principle is that condemnation must precede salvation.
Adam was indeed created perfect. God who is perfect cannot create anything which is imperfect.
Adam's original relationship with God was dependent upon him obeying God's command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God gave man volition and volition needs to have something to work with. Adam had to be given the opportunity to obey or to disobey God, and the tree was that opportunity. The moment he disobeyed that command as God had always known that he would, he died spiritually. Satan thought that he had won his case against God when Adam fell and that God would have to reverse His sentencing of Satan to the lake of fire. But all Adam's disobedience did was to advance God's predetermined plan (Acts 2:23). God immediately condemned Adam and the woman (she wasn't yet called Eve, until after the fall), and then just as quickly gave the gospel promise of the Messiah who was to come (Gen 3:15). Both Adam and Eve believed the promise and were then eternally saved never to again be in danger of breaking their eternal relationship with God through sin.
And so, God put the entire human race into one basket, under the umbrella of grace by immediately condemning every person the moment they are born, so that all they have to do to be eternally saved is to simply place their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Adam didn't have eternal security before the fall. His relationship with God was dependent on obedience. But once he was condemned and then believed the promise of the coming Messiah he was entered into a new and unbreakable eternal relationship with God, though his relationship with God in time would involve discipline for disobedience.
Therefore the condemnation of the entire human race including the new born baby is an act of grace. Being already condemned, a person needs only to respond to the gospel through faith alone in Christ alone in order to enter into an eternally secure relationship with God.
The book of Romans does teach that everyone is condemned on the basis of Adam's original sin (Romans 5:18-19).
The word sin unfortunatly has come to have only one implied meaning for most people nowdays and that implied meaning is "bad".
That is the reason that people have to rationalize that little babies are perfect and God would not judge them. Anything could be further from the truth.
With that said, when you understand that all humans at the point of conception are concieved into a less than ideal environment, and at some point "learns" right from wrong on some level, then you can see the distinction.
There is no exception for babies including the unborn that will keep them from being judged by God.
There are no exceptions that all humans are born imperfect on some level, that is why all humans will get sick with something, have ailments, have struggles, have to learn what they do not know and at some point make moral decision on some level.
Perfection at the level of Godliness is not something any human at any point has.
The difference is that being born imperfect is not morally bad or wrong.
The difference is that God will judge babies, including the unborn with his righteousness, and they have not lived lives and made choices that would cause us to be concerned in any capacity over their fate.
It is that wonderful God that judges us all and we should be glad that God has the final say and not members of this forum, including me.
So I see a God where I am glad he judges babies. If he just ignored them, they truly would be lost if they died, he judges them so they will be with him. What will the unborn or the newborn or even a toddler answer for? LOL, he says let them come to him. I guess each person can decide if that is good or bad, I think it is wonderful.
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