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I want to give a fairly complete answer to why babies are born already spiritually dead. Remember though that anyone who dies without ever having the ability to comprehend the concept of God is automatically saved based on the finished work of Christ on the cross.
You are not going to find a passage which directly states that. You have to understand the principle that because the entire human race was seminally in Adam - he is the federal head of the human race, the entire human race bears the consequences of his original sin. God did this out of grace. The principle is that condemnation must precede salvation.
Adam was indeed created perfect. God who is perfect cannot create anything which is imperfect.
Adam's original relationship with God was dependent upon him obeying God's command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God gave man volition and volition needs to have something to work with. Adam had to be given the opportunity to obey or to disobey God, and the tree was that opportunity. The moment he disobeyed that command as God had always known that he would, he died spiritually. Satan thought that he had won his case against God when Adam fell and that God would have to reverse His sentencing of Satan to the lake of fire. But all Adam's disobedience did was to advance God's predetermined plan (Acts 2:23). God immediately condemned Adam and the woman (she wasn't yet called Eve, until after the fall), and then just as quickly gave the gospel promise of the Messiah who was to come (Gen 3:15). Both Adam and Eve believed the promise and were then eternally saved never to again be in danger of breaking their eternal relationship with God through sin.
And so, God put the entire human race into one basket, under the umbrella of grace by immediately condemning every person the moment they are born, so that all they have to do to be eternally saved is to simply place their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Adam didn't have eternal security before the fall. His relationship with God was dependent on obedience. But once he was condemned and then believed the promise of the coming Messiah he was entered into a new and unbreakable eternal relationship with God, though his relationship with God in time would involve discipline for disobedience.
Therefore the condemnation of the entire human race including the new born baby is an act of grace. Being already condemned, a person needs only to respond to the gospel through faith alone in Christ alone in order to enter into an eternally secure relationship with God.
The book of Romans does teach that everyone is condemned on the basis of Adam's original sin (Romans 5:18-19).
Thank you for taking the time to explain your position.
You said, "Adam was indeed created perfect. God who is perfect cannot create anything which is imperfect."
I totally agree! Yet you say we are created with a sinful nature. That doesn't make sense to me, and you freely admit there is no specific scripture that says that we are.
God directly says that HE creates the spirit of man. Can God create anything that is sinful? No, of course not. Then how could He have created man with a sinful nature? God can create only that which is good and perfect. (James 1:17)
5Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on itAnd spirit to those who walk in it, (Isa. 42:5)
"Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth,and forms the spirit of man within him, (Zecharaiah 12:1)
You believe that man was/is not created in the image of God after the fall of Adam, correct? Yet the scriptures say different. Long after the fall of Adam, God said:
6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man. (Genesis 9:6)
And James when speaking about the tongue, " 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;"
There are no scriptures that say we inherit sin or a sinful nature, but there are scriptures that say that God directly creates our spirits, and that we are made in His image and likeness. We need to base our doctrine on what the scriptures say, not on what they don't say.
More on Romans 5:18-19 later. But for now, no one is condemned by another's sin (Ez. 18:20)
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 12-21-2011 at 01:04 PM..
Because the penalty of sin is indeed spiritual death which eventually resulted in physical death for Adam some 900 years later, and therefore everyone is born spiritually dead, (and spiritual death means separation from God in time) Jesus had to die spiritually as He was being judged for the sins of the world during His last three hours on the cross from 12:00 noon to about 3:00 PM. Jesus was still physically alive when He had finished paying for mankind's personal sins. While He was bearing our sins in His body His relationship with the Father was broken - spiritual death. His work with regard to paying the penalty for sin having been completed He as an act of His own volition dismissed His spirit and died physically. This was necessary so that His body could be resurrected making Jesus the first member of the human race to be resurrected. People before Christ had been resuscitated physically only to die again, but no one had ever been resuscitated before Jesus Christ.
Mike, the Bible never said Adam died spiritually the day he sinned. Whoever told you that is just making things up. It just is not in the Bible.
The Hebrew is: "To die shall you be dying." God never mean "spiritual death" when He told Adam that. He meant a literal dying process. He would work by the sweat of his brow till he returned to the soil. That is the meaning of "to die shall you be dying."
That same death was passed through into all mankind.
Spiritual death was not passed through into all mankind. Romans 5:12 just says "death."
Christ overcame death. He did not overcome spiritual death.
Babies are not born "spiritually dead." There is nothing of that in the whole bible. Babies have death operating in them as passed on down from Adam. We all have death operating in us until we eventually die.
Christ came to save us from sin and death. He did not come to save us from a spiritual death. WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE DYING. That is what Romans 5:12 is all about.
Mike, the Bible never said Adam died spiritually the day he sinned. Whoever told you that is just making things up. It just is not in the Bible.
The Hebrew is: "To die shall you be dying." God never mean "spiritual death" when He told Adam that. He meant a literal dying process. He would work by the sweat of his brow till he returned to the soil. That is the meaning of "to die shall you be dying."
That same death was passed through into all mankind.
Spiritual death was not passed through into all mankind. Romans 5:12 just says "death."
Christ overcame death. He did not overcome spiritual death.
Eusebius, when Adam disobeyed God, he sinned. It is a fact that sin separates us from God. When we are separated from God, we are spiritually dead.
God told Adam, "“From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
God promised death to Adam in the day that you eat from it. We know Adam didn't die physically that day. He died spiritually because he disobeyed God.
Anyone who sins is separated from God and is spiritually dead. The only way they can be reconciled to God is by obeying the gospel.
You are right about babies though. They do not inherit sin nor do they inherit a sinful nature. God doesn't create evil.
Babies are not born "spiritually dead." There is nothing of that in the whole bible. Babies have death operating in them as passed on down from Adam. We all have death operating in us until we eventually die.
Christ came to save us from sin and death. He did not come to save us from a spiritual death. WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE DYING. That is what Romans 5:12 is all about.
Thank you for taking the time to explain your position.
You said, "Adam was indeed created perfect. God who is perfect cannot create anything which is imperfect."
I totally agree! Yet you say we are created with a sinful nature. That doesn't make sense to me, and you freely admit there is no specific scripture that says that we are.
God directly says that HE creates the spirit of man. Can God create anything that is sinful? No, of course not. Then how could He have created man with a sinful nature? God can create only that which is good and perfect. (James 1:17)
5Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on itAnd spirit to those who walk in it, (Isa. 42:5)
"Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth,and forms the spirit of man within him, (Zecharaiah 12:1)
You believe that man was/is not created in the image of God after the fall of Adam, correct? Yet the scriptures say different. Long after the fall of Adam, God said:
6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man. (Genesis 9:6)
And James when speaking about the tongue, " 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;"
There are no scriptures that say we inherit sin or a sinful nature, but there are scriptures that say that God directly creates our spirits, and that we are made in His image and likeness. We need to base our doctrine on what the scriptures say, not on what they don't say.
More on Romans 5:18-19 later. But for now, no one is condemned by another's sin (Ez. 18:20)
Katie
I didn't think to include the following in my answer.
Only Adam was directly created by God in terms of body, soul and spirit. It is true that God in every case directly creates the soul of everyone who is born and imputes it at birth to the fetus at the point where it is able to take its first independent breath. But with regard to the body, only Adam was created by God. Eve of course was made from one of Adams ribs. But what happens is that everyone comes into the world by way of being born. When the soul which is created by God and is perfect at that point, is imputed to the body of the new born infant, it comes into contact with the genetically transmitted old sin nature and is tainted. And therefore at physical birth the baby is born spiritually dead.
Unfair = not fair
I don't see how you can say they are not the same.
The fact remains that fair is synonomous with just.
You are not consistent at all. You interpret Psalms literally when it suits you and figuratively the rest of the time. If you are going to interpret literally, then you'd better do it all the time, not just when it agrees with your doctrine. I specifically pointed out the verses you do this with in another thread at an earlier time, and you never responded to my post.
Psalm 103:10 isn't saying that God is not fair because he doesn't treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. That is how you are reading it.
He doesn't treat us the way we should be treated because he is loving and merciful.
Katie
Sorry Katie,
I don't recall the verse you're refering to in a different thread. Is it the Psalm 103:10.
As far as this ...
"He doesn't treat us the way we should be treated because he is loving and merciful"
that is absolutly spot on. That is the point when I say that "God is not being 'fair' " with his treatment towards us believers. The reality is if I'm objectively looking at myself, I would conclude with the Pslamist and Isaiah who are admitting by default by saying: ...
Psalm 130:3
If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, whocouldstand?
Again Katie ...
Psalm 103:10 was written by King David... and what did King David do ? He only lustfully look at a woman, had her husband killed via manipulation of the infantry, entered into a bigamy relationship, and attempted to hid it from God for nearly a year.
King David was admitting that because of God's mercy and love ...God does "not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." Without saying it verbatim, King David was admitting that by all fairness to the seriousness of our sins, the law demands retribution from the offending party ........ namely myself.
That is what Isaiah 53 speaks to ... the substitutory nature which rightly belongs to us was placed on Jesus. Jesus was our "fall guy" ... as Pilate observed:
“I find no basis for a charge against this man.â€
“Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty."
As far as Pilate was concerned .. Jssus was being unfairly accused of something he wasn't responsible for. The "fair" thing to do would been to acquit Jesus. From a spiritual perspective, the "fair" thing to do was for God not to have Jesus pay for our sins, be we ourself.
We benefit from this unfair exchange that the law demands... the law demands the guiltless (who is Jesus) be acquited, the guilty ( who is you and me) who did the sin be punished. The unfair treatment done by God to Jesus instead of us resulted in:
" he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."
That is why were are "saved by grace.. how sweet that sound, that saved a wretch. like ME ! "
Mike, the Bible never said Adam died spiritually the day he sinned. Whoever told you that is just making things up. It just is not in the Bible.
The Hebrew is: "To die shall you be dying." God never mean "spiritual death" when He told Adam that. He meant a literal dying process. He would work by the sweat of his brow till he returned to the soil. That is the meaning of "to die shall you be dying."
That same death was passed through into all mankind.
Spiritual death was not passed through into all mankind. Romans 5:12 just says "death."
Christ overcame death. He did not overcome spiritual death.
Adam died spiritually the moment he sinned. That is, his relationship with God was broken. He was now separated from God in time in terms of that now non-existant relationship. Apart from God making salvation possible through the Messiah, Adam would have been eternally separated from God. But Adam believed the promise of the Messiah who would come in the future and was at that point eternally saved. He now had an unbreakable, eternal relationship with God.
Everyone thereafter is born spiritually dead - having no relationship with God and therefore separated from God. For that reason, Jesus's relationship with the Father when He was in contact with the sins of the world and being judged for them, had to be broken. That was His spiritual death. That is what paid the penalty for the sins of the world.
When the last sin of the human race had finished being paid for by Christ His relationship with the Father was restored.
When a person simply trusts in the finished work of Christ on the cross he is imputed with God's eternal life and perfect righteousness and is entered into an eternal relationship with God. He goes from spiritual death to eternal life. He goes from having no relationship with God, to having an unbreakable eternal relationship with God.
Babies are not born "spiritually dead." There is nothing of that in the whole bible. Babies have death operating in them as passed on down from Adam. We all have death operating in us until we eventually die.
Christ came to save us from sin and death. He did not come to save us from a spiritual death. WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE DYING. That is what Romans 5:12 is all about.
This is totally contrary to the scriptures. We don't sin because we are dieing. We die because we have sin.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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