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For those who are posting articles to help shed light on the subject, I'll just let you know that I don't have much regard for commentaries anymore. I'll read them, and consider them, but I have a much higher regard for early Christian history and the writings of the ECF's. I find that commentators are so influenced by different streams of thinking that arose over time and later evolved into what we now accept as orthodox Christian teaching. Orthodoxy is best defined as what the apostles taught, and is best elucidated by apostolic tradition recorded when the church was blossoming up until the early 4th century. IMO.
For those who are posting articles to help shed light on the subject, I'll just let you know that I don't have much regard for commentaries anymore. I'll read them, and consider them, but I have a much higher regard for early Christian history and the writings of the ECF's. I find that commentators are so influenced by different streams of thinking that arose over time and later evolved into what we now accept as orthodox Christian teaching. Orthodoxy is best defined as what the apostles taught, and is best elucidated by apostolic tradition recorded when the church was blossoming up until the early 4th century. IMO.
If the punishment for breaking the law is death, Jesus took on that punishment for us, on our behalf. No???
Scripture upon scripture has been given to show that Jesus took on our punishment for breaking the law.
What point exactly are you trying to make in this thread?
What do you believe from scripture regarding Jesus death?
If the punishment for breaking the law is death, Jesus took on that punishment for us, on our behalf. No???
Scripture upon scripture has been given to show that Jesus took on our punishment for breaking the law.
What point exactly are you trying to make in this thread?
What do you believe from scripture regarding Jesus death?
I'm actually not trying to make any point. I'm just trying to figure out if the Scripture really states that Jesus was punished for our sins. If you go through the thread, different people have offered different Scriptures to suggest Jesus was punished... but truthfully I haven't seen anything convincing yet. I've seen people interpreting Scriptures in that way, but nothing that necessitates that conclusion at all. Actually, nobody has shown scripture that shows that Jesus took on our punishment for breaking the law, as you said above.
Do you think Jesus being punished for our sins is the only way to understand His death and the atonement?
Why do we elevate God's justice over God's mercy? It's like saying: God HAD to punish sin, there was no way around it. He can't simply FORGIVE a repentant person... their sin must be paid for! I thought the Bible says that mercy triumphs over judgement, not the other way around. Just curious... I mean, I've always believed Jesus was punished for our sins. But I think it's good to ask why we believe what we do. Wouldn't you agree?
I have no reason to reject the idea that Jesus was punished if it's really true. No reason whatsoever.
I'm actually not trying to make any point. I'm just trying to figure out if the Scripture really states that Jesus was punished for our sins. If you go through the thread, different people have offered different Scriptures to suggest Jesus was punished... but truthfully I haven't seen anything convincing yet. I've seen people interpreting Scriptures in that way, but nothing that necessitates that conclusion at all. Actually, nobody has shown scripture that shows that Jesus took on our punishment for breaking the law, as you said above.
Do you think Jesus being punished for our sins is the only way to understand His death and the atonement?
Why do we elevate God's justice over God's mercy? It's like saying: God HAD to punish sin, there was no way around it. He can't simply FORGIVE a repentant person... their sin must be paid for! I thought the Bible says that mercy triumphs over judgement, not the other way around. Just curious... I mean, I've always believed Jesus was punished for our sins. But I think it's good to ask why we believe what we do. Wouldn't you agree?
I have no reason to reject the idea that Jesus was punished if it's really true. No reason whatsoever.
“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24).
“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit” (1 Peter 3:18).
I'm not asking if He does punish sin, but if He must.
Why is it that He can't just show mercy to a repentant sinner? Is God truly merciful if He has to exact punishment in order to forgive? And is God truly just if He doesn't?
I know that this begs the question (for some people) of "why did Jesus die, then?"... but I am just wondering what the Bible says about this subject.
Anybody have any insight into this?
Thank you!
As many have said, the "just wages" of sin are death ('wages' are what one earns or the consequence, not a punishment ...(except, perhaps, 'minimim wage')) --
The 'Justice' of a Holy God gives meaning/definition to 'mercy' and 'grace' (eg; "If there is no law, there is no transgression of the law"). Mercy is not giving us what we deserve (death); Grace is giving us what we don't deserve (eternal life ... in relationship with God).
God created us for a loving, faith-based relationship between each person and Himself. In order for love to exist, there has to be a choice (to love or not to love)... true faith must likewise include the choice of 'no faith' --- or faith, likewise, has no meaning.
Sinful man cannot satisfy the 'just wages' of sin with a sinful life (any more, for example, than one might satisfy their debt to Sears with a similar size debt to Macy's). Therefore, Christ paid a debt he did not owe, for people who owed a debt they could not pay.
Last edited by jghorton; 02-01-2012 at 11:48 AM..
Reason: clarity
Basically, the reason Jesus had to die for our sins was so that we could be forgiven and go to be with the Lord. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) and only God can satisfy the Law requirements of a perfect life and perfect sacrifice that cleanses us of our sins.
All people have sinned against God. But, God is infinitely holy and righteous. He must punish the sinner, the Law- breaker. If He didn't, then His law is not Law for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. The punishment for breaking the Law is death, separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human.
He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.
Hi saved, part of the above-linked article says:
All people have sinned against God. *But, God is infinitely holy and righteous. *He must punish the sinner, the Law- breaker. *If He didn't, then His law is not Law for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. *The punishment for breaking the Law is death, separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. *Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. *That is why Jesus is God in flesh. *He is both divine and human. *He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and He fulfilled it perfectly. *Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.
I am not sure about that part in bold.... Especially where it says that there is no law without punishment. From a human point of view, sure. But God is God.... what constrains Him to punish sin? What forces Him to require payment for sin, instead of show mercy if He chooses?
What forces Him to require payment for sin, instead of show mercy if He chooses?
His Character because God can't compromise it as a Just Judge. It's like a Judge letting go a Murderer. That isn't justice. The Judges Righteous Judgment would be compromised. He'd be no longer be a Just Judge. The Law is the Wages of Sin is Death. He came to pay it for us so he could offer a solution to pardon us without compromising his character.
We are like a group of individuals on death row with a bail we can't pay. Only by asking Jesus to pay it can we pay the bail because he has already paid all our bails on that Cross. We can accept it by coming to him. According to Scriptures, it's a "free gift" to any that come to God through him. It's a demonstration of his grace and loving kindness toward us.
Regarding showing mercy...
Romans 9
1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
It's interesting throughout Scripture the lack of faith/belief is suggested to be the stumbling stone not "Works of the Law".
It begs the question what exactly is the difference between "Works of the Law" and "Obedience to the Faith"? I think there is a subtle difference that is the foundation of confusion regarding the whole faith vs works debates.
"Works of the Law" being attempting to obtain one's own righteousness without submitting to obedience to the faith in Messiah - faith demonstrated by obedience to the faith producing fruit.<< I believe that's what it is.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 02-01-2012 at 01:54 PM..
Reason: .
For those who are posting articles to help shed light on the subject, I'll just let you know that I don't have much regard for commentaries anymore. I'll read them, and consider them, but I have a much higher regard for early Christian history and the writings of the ECF's. I find that commentators are so influenced by different streams of thinking that arose over time and later evolved into what we now accept as orthodox Christian teaching. Orthodoxy is best defined as what the apostles taught, and is best elucidated by apostolic tradition recorded when the church was blossoming up until the early 4th century. IMO.
So you are answering Jesus' question and wanting me to accept that your answer is obviously the right one. God withheld His help from Jesus, of that there is no question!
"Bore our sins in His body" means He was punished?
"pierced.... crushed.... punishment... wounds..."
None of this says that God did it, only that it happened to Jesus. Later, it says that it was God's will to crush Him and put Him to grief, but this also doesn't infer punishment by God - only that it was God's will for Him to suffer. I'd say, strictly speaking, punishment BY GOD has to be read into the text to be found there.
Are there any other Scriptures?
Are you purposefully trying not to understand this..... Isaiah 53:4; 10
4) Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
10) Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer
KJV:
4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief
Jesus was not only punished, he was shown no mercy.
Are you purposefully trying not to understand this..... Isaiah 53:4; 10
4) Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
10) Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer
KJV:
4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief
Jesus was not only punished, he was shown no mercy.
Sorry I am apparently difficult to persuade. I know you think I am being stubborn but I am not trying to be - I just don't see it here... Am I the only one?
The text doesn't say: He was stricken by God, smitten by Him and afflicted.
It does say... A couple verses earlier:
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Also...
And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
So, Jesus was innocent and in spite of His innocence, the Lord was pleased to sacrifice Him as an offering for guilt. Not punish Him for the sins of others that are transferred to Him on the cross (at least not what this text is saying).
Are there any verses in Hebrews that talk about Jesus' death as punishment for our sins? Just wondering because of the themes in Hebrews.
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Not weird at all, but, often misunderstood.
