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Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
ALTER2EGO -to- PRAIRIEPARSON:
So according to your logic, the mere mentioning of three entities at the same time equates to them being combined into a single person? That's like say George H. Bush (the former U.S. president), George W. Bush (his son, who also because a U.S. president) and Jeb Bush (the son and brother of the two president Bushes, respectively) are in a trinity and combined into one person--simply because all three of their names were mentioned at the same time.
I hope you will explain your logic when you apply this rule to Jehovah, Jesus Christ, and the holy ghost. I will watch for your reply.
What pagan religions may or may not teach has no bearing on what the word of God teaches concerning the nature of God. Satan knows that God is triune, and since religion is the invention of Satan, and since Satan counterfeits the truth, he naturally would inspire the concept of a trinity in certain religions for the purpose of muddying up the waters and obscuring the truth in order to cast doubt on the validity of what the Bible teaches.
Though the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, the triune nature of God is.
No one who claims to be a believer doubts that the Father is God, so nothing needs to said about that.
Both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are identified as God.
1.) Jesus Christ; John 1:1-3, Phil 2:6; Hebrews 1:8.
a.) Jesus identified Himself as God with the Jehovahistic 'I am' in John 8:24; John 8:58.
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''
John 8:58 'Jesus said to them, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.''
'I Am' is a self designation for God in certain contexts. See Isaiah 43:10-11.
In prayer to the Father, Jesus said this. John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." This shows that Jesus Christ was with the Father in eternity past.
2.) The Holy Spirit; Acts 5:3-4. Identified as God.
The Holy Spirit is identified as being a different person of the Trinity from the Father and Jesus Christ. John 14:26
John 14:26 ''But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
In John 14:26 1.) the Father, 2.) Jesus Christ, and 3.) the Holy Spirit are all identified.
I'm not interested in debating the matter. Debates seem to rarely change anyone's mind. As is shown above, the Bible reveals that God is Triune.
ALTER2EGO -to- MIKE555:
None of those scriptures you quoted above identifies a trinity. You are giving your personal interpretation by ignoring the context of every single one of those verses. Context refers to the surrounding verses and chapters, which give the correct meaning to individual verses. All you did was cherry pick verses that fit in with your personal philosophy. You'll have to come with something better than that.
You can start off by explaining why each scripture is saying "trinity"--from your viewpoint. This way, other people on the forum can figure out how you came up with your conclusions.
I can dismantle all of those verses that you're relying on in your response above, by showing you the context.
The illogic of what is claimed about the Trinity is a bit offputting.
We have the Father (A) who is unbegotten. The Son (B) who is begotten and proceds from the Father, and the Holy Spirit (C) who is begotten and proceeds from the Father and the Son.
But they are coequal. A=B=C.
This would mean then that C (begotten and proceeds from two) = B (begotten and proceeds from one)= A (unbegotten and proceeds from none).
Is that possible or a contradiction?
I hope the answer isn't going to be "It's a mystery, don't you know" ?
Last edited by ancient warrior; 03-06-2012 at 01:22 PM..
Reason: typo
None of those scriptures you quoted above identifies a trinity. You are giving your personal interpretation by ignoring the context of every single one of those verses. Context refers to the surrounding verses and chapters, which give the correct meaning to individual verses. All you did was cherry pick verses that fit in with your personal philosophy. You'll have to come with something better than that.
You can start off by explaining why each scripture is saying "trinity"--from your viewpoint. This way, other people on the forum can figure out how you came up with your conclusions.
I can dismantle all of those verses that you're relying on in your response above, by showing you the context.
You cannot dismantle truth.
You fail to understand that Scripture is compared with Scripture to establish that there are three Persons in the Godhead.
The Scriptures given show that God is three Persons who are one God. They are united as One by their essence or nature.
I also told you that I am not going to waste my time debating the issue. You've been given the facts. Believe what you will.
What pagan religions may or may not teach has no bearing on what the word of God teaches concerning the nature of God.
ALTER2EGO:
The trinity teaching was in pagan religions for 200 years before Jesus came to earth as a human. The falsehood did not become official "Christian" teaching until 300 years after Jesus returned to heaven--when the Roman Catholics hijacked Christianity and copied this teaching from preexisting pagan dogmas. But you're arguing that just because trinity was already in pagan religions 200 years prior to Christianity, it doesn't matter? What you actually mean is it doesn't matter to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Satan knows that God is triune, and since religion is the invention of Satan, and since Satan counterfeits the truth, he naturally would inspire the concept of a trinity in certain religions for the purpose of muddying up the waters and obscuring the truth in order to cast doubt on the validity of what the Bible teaches.
ALTER2EGO:
Show us the scriptures that indicate "Satan knows that God is triune."
DEFINITION OF "RELIGION":
Webster's New World College Dictionary 1. belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshiped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe
2. expression of such a belief in conduct and ritual
American Heritage Dictionary a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
According to the Judeo-Christian Bible, the first two humans, Adam and Eve, had interactions with the Creator, Jehovah God. In other words, they worshipped him according to the definitions given above--which amounts to RELIGION. The Bible also says the angels were created ahead of humans. The angels likewise had interactions with Almighty God and worshipped him--which equates to RELIGION.
I hope you will show this forum the scriptures that indicate "religion is the invention of Satan."
Last edited by Alter2Ego; 03-06-2012 at 02:14 PM..
Though the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, the triune nature of God is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No one who claims to be a believer doubts that the Father is God, so nothing needs to said about that.
Both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are identified as God.
ALTER2EGO:
You are blending facts with fiction and then trying to pass them all off as facts. I will quote what you said verbatim and demonstrate this.
FACT #1: "Though the word Trinity is not found in the Bible,"
FICTION #1: "the triune nature of God is."
FACT #2: "No one who claims to be a believer doubts that the Father is God, so nothing needs to said about that."
FICTION #2: "Both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are identified as God."
Show us where the "triune nature of God" is found in the scriptures by quoting the verses verbatim and them explaining how, in your mind, each scripture indicates "triune God." You need to do the same thing with your second false statement that "Both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are identified as God."
Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus identified as Almighty God. And nowhere in the Bible is the holy ghost or holy spirit identified as literally being Jehovah. But maybe you know something I don't know. So do us the favor of quoting the verses of scriptures and identify the exact words where it indicates Jesus Christ and the holy spirit are both Almighty God.
The Bible identifies Jesus as "a god" but not "the God." Those are two entirely different things. Truth be told, ALL of the angelic sons of Jehovah are identified in the Bible as "gods," because the word "god" is nothing more than a title meaning "powerful" or "supernatural person." Only Jehovah has the title "Almighty God"--which indicates he is ALL MIGHTY and is over all others.
WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF "GOD": 1. any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature
2. a person or thing deified or excessively honored or admired
In effect, the word "god" is a title that is NOT applied only to the Creator, Jehovah. It applies to ALL of the angels in heaven because they fit the definition of powerful beings that are supernatural. This is confirmed by the apostle Paul, as follows:
"For even though there are those who are called 'gods,' whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are MANY 'gods' and many 'lords,'" (1 Corinthians 8:5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I'm not interested in debating the matter. Debates seem to rarely change anyone's mind. As is shown above, the Bible reveals that God is Triune.
ALTER2EGO:
Translation: You don't want to be challenged on a false teaching that you hold dear, because you would prefer to continue pretending that it's not idolatry--which is strictly forbidden by Jehovah God.
You fail to understand that Scripture is compared with Scripture to establish that there are three Persons in the Godhead.
The Scriptures given show that God is three Persons who are one God. They are united as One by their essence or nature.
I also told you that I am not going to waste my time debating the issue. You've been given the facts. Believe what you will.
ALTER2EGO -to- MIKE555:
No amount of "Scripture is compared with Scripture" will ever establish what is not to be found anywhere in the Bible. The only way Trinitarians have been able to maintain that this falsehood is Bible-based is by ignoring the context within which certain verses appear. They cherry pick a single verse that appears to be saying what they desperately want to believe. But when one reads the context--the surrounding verses and chapters--it becomes quite clear that the verse that the Trinitarians focused on was not saying "trinity" at all.
In any event, I can see that you intend to keep running--which suggests you're not interested in being corrected. Be my guest. Just know that whenever you post falsehoods about a 3-prong god in this thread, I will continue to rebut your statements.
BTW: The word "GODHEAD" did not appear in the original writings of the Bible. The last book of the Bible was completed in 41 AD. That is, in the first century. The word "GODHEDE" appeared for the first time in a 14th Century English translation of the Bible--1,300 years after the fact. The translator who introduced the word "Godhede" was named John Wycleffe. He was a Catholic Priest. That's right, he belonged to the very same religion responsible for the Trinity dogma. By the time the King James Version was released in 1611, the word "Godhede" had been changed to "Godhead" by the King James Version translators--all of whom came right out and declared that they were Trinitarians.
Last edited by Alter2Ego; 03-06-2012 at 02:50 PM..
DEBATE QUESTIONS: 1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching? 2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it? 3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it? 4. Where does the word "godhead" come from? 5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?
Trinity if truth from John 14:15-29.... Jesus said ..``you will know that I am in my Father , and you in me and I in you.....I will pray the Father and he will give you another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever, Which is the Holy Spirit...... A description of trinity come in the Word as a warning to pay heed..to believe or be warned From Revelations 13: 18.....Jesus vision to John said ``Here is wisdom...Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast for it is mans number and the number is 666.... So man number for the error that man is demi-god were man number for the trinity is 666 were man is Father demi-god , and man is Jesus demi-god and man is Holy Spirit demi-god, as man has no need for the tradition and authority of the true living God..... as Jesus number is 3 in the trinity.........Not three sixes and this mans number of the beast ....
The illogic of what is claimed about the Trinity is a bit offputting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior
We have the Father (A) who is unbegotten. The Son (B) who is begotten and proceds from the Father, and the Holy Spirit (C) who is begotten and proceeds from the Father and the Son.
But they are coequal. A=B=C.
This would mean then that C (begotten and proceeds from two) = B (begotten and proceeds from one)= A (unbegotten and proceeds from none).
Is that possible or a contradiction?
I hope the answer isn't going to be "It's a mystery, don't you know" ?
ALTER2EGO -to- ANCIENT WARRIOR:
Your answer shows how false and illogical the trinity teaching is. According to the trinity dogma, the Father (Jehovah) the Son (Jesus Christ) and the holy ghost or holy spirit are three persons that are CO-EQUAL, have all existed at the same time and are all three CO-ETERNAL (meaning all three of them cannot die), and all three of them are PERSONS. They are then combined into a "godhead" as a single person.
Below once more is the official meaning of "trinity." I will follow it with several scriptures and will end this post with a single question to you. If you answer that one question according to the scriptures that I will be using, you will begin to see the light.
Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
Ancient Warrior, below are scriptures that will begin to answer your questions--if you use good logic.
JEHOVAH HAS NO BEGINNING AND IS ETERNAL (meaning Jehovah can't die):
"Before the mountains themselves were born, or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land, even FROM TIME INDEFINITE to TIME INDEFINITE you are God." (Psalms 90:2)
JESUS WAS CREATED BY JEHOVAH, (meaning Jesus had a beginning):
"He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)
"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14)
NOTE: The words "firstborn" and "begotten" apply to created beings according to any English dictionary.
JESUS LITERALLY DIED:
"{50} Again Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. {58} This man went up to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded it to be given over. {59} And Joseph took the body, wrapped it up in clean fine linen, {60} and laid it in his new memorial tomb, which he had quarried in the rock-mass. And, after rolling a big stone to the door of the memorial tomb, he left." (Matthew 27:50)
Now Ancient Warrior, according to the Bible, is Jesus eternal? And I haven't even touched on the holy spirit at this point. That will come later.
Last edited by Alter2Ego; 03-06-2012 at 06:01 PM..
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Logical or contradictory?
