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When it is your time to go, you will go and won't come back. If you never left, or 'hung out' and watched the operation, then obviously it was not your time. The tunnels and visions of relatives etc are dreams, and fabrications of your brain, which is not dead at that point. I think you are reading too much into these nde reports, and worse, you are drawing your own conclusions from them thining everyone is going to the same place.
Finn, if the tunnels, visions etc were fabrications, then wouldn't each person have a series of totally unrelated--not to mentioned very disorganized and chaotic--collection of images as their brains slowing die? One person would be thinking their pet goldfish; another would be envisioning their favorite girlfriend; another would have images of their last vacation destination, etc. The best neurosurgeons in the world will readily admit, even as atheists, that the brain is absolutely incapable of fabricating anything when the EEG shows flat lines and no blood is circulating through the brain because of cessation of heart function. On the contrary, these "fabrications" are detailed, very accurate, highly organized sequences of events with all of them---15 million worldwide by the last estimate---sharing nearly identical features such as meeting dead relatives--in innumerable cases relatives they never knew they even had. And you still have not addressed how the person can recount the most minute details of what went on in the OR while they were clinically dead.
Why are you putting man's faulty conclusions of "science falsely called so" over what the Scriptures say?
While Science means knowledge which by definition can not be wrong, mankind's conclusions have been proven wrong time after time again.
So this doesn't really prove anything, but just someone's conclusion of what they think by attempting to observe a spiritual phenomenon from from a physical perspective.
I believe what God says in his word and let "God be true and every man a liar."
I believe when you need to see how the machine works, we should look at the owner's manual.
The modern Bible---which, in and of itself, is hardly a reliable source to pin your beliefs on when it comes to the destiny of the spirit, says man's spirit immediately departs upon death to appear before God to be judged and either admitted into heaven or cast into hell. None of the hundreds of verified NDE's studied by atheist doctors related a single incident of the person meeting the devil or demons or being cast into flames, in stark contrast to rubbish put out by kooks like Mary K Baxter and George Weiss, who had no medical verification for anything they claim to have experienced as found in their books, which were obviously put out to make money for the publishers and themselves.
I showed you in post #6 the results of clinical studies. None of these people met the wrathful, judgmental God depicted in the King James bible. On the contrary, non-Christians most frequently met an overwhelming loving, non-judgmental Supreme Being who pointed out their flaws and then had them escorted back to their earthly realm. It was the Christians who most frequently had the most unpleasant experiences, not surprisingly, because of impressions of hell and damnation from the Bible made on their psyche all through their lives regarding would happen to them if they felt they were dying in a state of sin.
The modern Bible---which, in and of itself, is hardly a reliable source to pin your beliefs on when it comes to the destiny of the spirit, says man's spirit immediately departs upon death to appear before God to be judged and either admitted into heaven or cast into hell. None of the hundreds of verified NDE's studied by atheist doctors related a single incident of the person meeting the devil or demons or being cast into flames, in stark contrast to rubbish put out by kooks like Mary K Baxter and George Weiss, who had no medical verification for anything they claim to have experienced as found in their books, which were obviously put out to make money for the publishers and themselves.
I showed you in post #6 the results of clinical studies. None of these people met the wrathful, judgmental God depicted in the King James bible. On the contrary, non-Christians most frequently met an overwhelming loving, non-judgmental Supreme Being who pointed out their flaws and then had them escorted back to their earthly realm. It was the Christians who most frequently had the most unpleasant experiences, not surprisingly, because of impressions of hell and damnation from the Bible made on their psyche all through their lives regarding would happen to them if they felt they were dying in a state of sin.
The Bible does not even teach that people go to hell after they die. People (sinners) go to hades, and stay there until they are judged after the 1000 kingdom. How can you say the Bible is faulty when you have not even read it? Also, the Bible says nothing about "immediately" as if you go somewhere the second you close your eyes. It takes time for the brain to die, and as your studies say, during that time the brain goes through these sensations, and you see visions etc, but they are still coming from your brain, and the reason you remember them, is the simple fact that the brain was NOT dead, and registered your memories, or dreams in this case. These people may have been going through the first stages of dying, but they were not dead, the brain was still alive.
The Bible does not even teach that people go to hell after they die. People (sinners) go to hades, and stay there until they are judged after the 1000 kingdom. How can you say the Bible is faulty when you have not even read it? Also, the Bible says nothing about "immediately" as if you go somewhere the second you close your eyes. It takes time for the brain to die, and as your studies say, during that time the brain goes through these sensations, and you see visions etc, but they are still coming from your brain, and the reason you remember them, is the simple fact that the brain was NOT dead, and registered your memories, or dreams in this case. These people may have been going through the first stages of dying, but they were not dead, the brain was still alive.
You should know that when hades is often used, it is as the reference to hell.
What Jesus teaches is that one doesn't have to die to be condemned to hell because already when alive it's determined those who are sent there are so because it's based on rejection and or faith that doesn't produce good works.
Matthew 3:10, Luke 3:9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (Hell)
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
The only thing facing a person after death is judgment Hebrews 9:27 and once judged it's heaven or hell and it's final.
You should know that when hades is often used, it is as the reference to hell.
What Jesus teaches is that one doesn't have to die to be condemned to hell because already when alive it's determined those who are sent there are so because it's based on rejection and or faith that doesn't produce good works.
Matthew 3:10, Luke 3:9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (Hell)
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
The only thing facing a person after death is judgment Hebrews 9:27 and once judged it's heaven or hell and it's final.
The grand opening of the lake of fire aka 'hell' is not until the final judgment day, the day of the Lord. At that time sinners will be resurrected form hades and judged, and thrown in hell. Hades and hell may be similar, as the Bible describes hades is also a place of torment, but they are still different places. Our status is known to God, so when we die we are separated and will go either to to be with the lord, or to Hades. I suppose you can call that judgment too. but that is different from the final judgment day, which is a one time event. I think your view would suggest there is a final judgment day every time someone dies, an on-going process as opposed to one time event. Either way I think it is somewhat off topic.
How does your story prove that believers do not go to be with the Lord? Do you think this guy's spirit was going to stay in the operating room forever?
Exactly. If it was God's plan to keep this person here for awhile longer, than God was not going to allow that soul to meet him in heaven yet... imagine coming back with that imagery.
We just absolutely have to acknowledge that the Bible has gotten a lot of things "wrong". I don't mean that the scriptures were originally wrong, but that through the hundreds of thousands of generations of translations over the millennia things just went totally awry with what we have come to call the "Bible--the 'inerrant' Word of God".
Take for example this idea as propounded by Solomon, Paul and other writers that upon death the spirit immediately goes into the presence of God. That may not necessarily be so. Below is one of the most convincing videos I have ever watched (and over the last month I have heard and read literally hundreds of stories of NDE's via the Internet and YouTube). For those who cannot watch the video because they still have dial-up I will summarize:
Renowned pioneer cardiac surgeon Dr. Lloyd Rudy is being interviewed about an incident that occurred during a cardiac operation where the patient had to be pronounced dead because the operation room personnel could not get the blood infused properly into the patient's body. So the bypass machine was turned off, the anesthesiologist was dismissed and the surgical tech instructed to stitch up the patient for autopsy prep. Unbeknownst to Rudy and the others, the monitors were accidentally left on. Now bear in mind that at the time the patient was "declared" he had no vitals, no heartbeat or brainwaves registering on the monitor. He was "flatline" in the parlance. For over 20 minutes Rudy and the assisting surgeon stood in the doorway discussing what went wrong and what they might have done better. Suddenly, the monitor began to register a faint heartbeat; then it got stronger and stronger until a BP of 100 registered. By this time the anesthesiologist had hurriedly been called back and the surgeons raced back to the table to attend the patient. That was astonishing enough, but what the surgeon says truly astonished him was that in recovery a few days later, the patient recounted to Rudy every last detail of the conversation that transpired between Rudy and the assistant as well as other details of what went on in the OR after he was declared dead. The patient said his spirit just floated around the room during the entire course of the conversation. Rudy doesn't indicate when the patient said he reentered his body, nor does Rudy indicate the man's faith, though I think the man would have readily admitted to being Christian if was. Coming from a renowned non-Christian surgeon who says he now believes there is "something out there", this is one of the strongest, most reliable stories of an NDE I have ever read but you really have to watch the video to get a sense of the power behind the surgeon's words.
Fundamentalists will probably argue, "Well obviously he wasn't really dead". Well, you try telling that to a world-famous surgeon who isn't in the habit of pronouncing his patients dead until he is 1000% certain they are dead. By any scientific measuring device known or used this patient was definitely dead, especially if he readily says his spirit hovered above the OR watching all the action for at least 20 minutes.
NDE's are not what really happens when one dies or nearly dies. People don't go to "Hell" nor "Heaven" when they die. When one floats above their body they don't literally float above their body. It is just their brain has entered into a sort of matrix whereby it can remote view. There are people the U.S. govt. has used to remote view on the Russians missile systems during the cold war.
You wrote:
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but that through the hundreds of thousands of generations of translations over the millennia things just went totally awry
"hundreds of thousands of generations of translations"? Really? That's laughable!
The grand opening of the lake of fire aka 'hell' is not until the final judgment day, the day of the Lord. At that time sinners will be resurrected form hades and judged, and thrown in hell. Hades and hell may be similar, as the Bible describes hades is also a place of torment, but they are still different places. Our status is known to God, so when we die we are separated and will go either to to be with the lord, or to Hades. I suppose you can call that judgment too. but that is different from the final judgment day, which is a one time event. I think your view would suggest there is a final judgment day every time someone dies, an on-going process as opposed to one time event. Either way I think it is somewhat off topic.
When Paul wrote "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" for that man, it is his "judgement day" but as you said it's different from "The (as in the one and only) Judgement Day".
Thankfully Jesus spoke what happens to the person after death thus the claim of one's soul not immediatly not going before God rather silly.
When Paul wrote "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" for that man, it is his "judgement day" but as you said it's different from "The (as in the one and only) Judgement Day".
Yes, the eternal destination is known immediately after death, so there are two judgments. Heb 9:27 proves that the opportunity for salvation is over at physical death. There is nothing more anyone can do about it, which is why it is so important to seek Lord now, while we are still here.
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Thankfully Jesus spoke what happens to the person after death thus the claim of one's soul not immediately not going before God rather silly.
Yes, some unbelievers seek loopholes in NDE studies etc while trying to convince themselves they so not need God.
You wrote: "hundreds of thousands of generations of translations"? Really? That's laughable!
Haha LOL I caught that too Eusebius. I guess I'm just glad to see Thrillobyte focusing (or should I say obsessing?) about something other than the "rapture".
I don't believe there is such a thing as a NDE, it's simply that the person is not dead yet and the brain is still functioning in a dream-like state. The reason all the proposed NDE's are similar is because all brains always do the same thing when they are deprived of oxygen.....a brain is a brain is a brain.
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I guess I'm just glad to see Thrillobyte focusing (or should I say obsessing?) about something other than the "rapture".
