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It sounds more like a dream a lawer is trying to cram down your thoat.
Finn, you are going to drown in that kool-aid the Fundamentalist Church corporate machine has been giving you to drink all your life. As I said, we have no common ground. You are free to respond, but my focus from now on will be to present stories of positive encounters with God, not to try to change a mind that cannot be changed.
When it is your time to go, you will go and won't come back. If you never left, or 'hung out' and watched the operation, then obviously it was not your time. The tunnels and visions of relatives etc are dreams, and fabrications of your brain, which is not dead at that point. I think you are reading too much into these nde reports, and worse, you are drawing your own conclusions from them thinking everyone is going to the same place.
While I agree with you that they probably hung around because "it wasn't their time to go", I wonder about your statement that seeing tunnels and visions of relatives are just "dreams or fabrications" of the brain. How do you know? What is your source for this claim? Can you back that up with Bible? That just sounds a little much like it could be personal opinion to me. Just 'sayin...
While I agree with you that they probably hung around because "it wasn't their time to go", I wonder about your statement that seeing tunnels and visions of relatives are just "dreams or fabrications" of the brain. How do you know? What is your source for this claim? Can you back that up with Bible? That just sounds a little much like it could be personal opinion to me. Just 'sayin...
Can I back what up with the Bible? No, the Bible does not speak about tunnels of light and NDEs.
No, it is not personal opinon either, I have read studies about the NDEs and they are caused by the unconcious brain playing tricks on people.
I think this thread belongs in the Science or 'religion/atheism' forums.
While I agree with you that they probably hung around because "it wasn't their time to go", I wonder about your statement that seeing tunnels and visions of relatives are just "dreams or fabrications" of the brain. How do you know? What is your source for this claim? Can you back that up with Bible? That just sounds a little much like it could be personal opinion to me. Just 'sayin...
to which Finn_Jarber replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Can I back what up with the Bible? No, the Bible does not speak about tunnels of light and NDEs.
No, it is not personal opinon either, I have read studies about the NDEs and they are caused by the unconcious brain playing tricks on people.
I think this thread belongs in the Science or 'religion/atheism' forums.
Bud, I'd like to tell Finn the following, but he just won't listen. His mind is made up and there's no changing it regardless of the evidence you throw at him. So I will direct this to you in the hope (very little hope, I assure you) that Finn might at least read and consider:
The opponents of NDE's are scarce and growing scarcer by the day as new and more compelling scientific data emerges constantly in support of the validity of NDE's. They run at about a ratio of 100:1--100 who say they are legitimate to every 1 who say, as Finn does, they are products of a dying brain---"The Dying Brain Hypothesis", as it is referred to, which has been discredited so many times by reputable scientists--more reputable than Finn, I can assure you ---that only die-hard hardcore atheists subscribe to the DB hypothesis anymore, which is ironic in Finn's case as he is a Christian, while the proponents of NDE's that are lining up by the hundreds are mostly atheist scientist-types. But here are some facts that you might find interesting:
"The main criticism of [Susan Blackmore's] work by other NDE experts tends to be that she dismisses the vast data that doesn’t fit into her [Dying Brain]hypotheses. NDE author Kenneth Ring, who wrote Lessons from the Light: What We Can Learn from the Near-Death Experience points out in an article he wrote for the Winter 1995 issue of the Journal of Near-Death Studies:
Quote:
“Such reductionism, however, may only be explaining the mechanism of the near-death experience, not necessarily the near-death experience itself. In the same way, it is possible to reduce a television set to its basic elements such as electrodes and tubes, but one cannot satisfactorily explain the television show being played on it using reductionist terms. Concerning the chemical basis of the near-death experience and using this television analogy, if the brain can be thought of as a television set, then the near-death experience can be thought of as the television show being played on it. Science maybe able to quantify everything concerning the television set components (i.e. the brain), but science is unable to satisfactorily quantify the television show being played on it (i.e. the near-death experience).”
"There are several convincing categories of evidence to suggest that NDE’s are not just mere hallucinations caused by a brain that is shutting down. For more on this, see Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife. These tend to be ignored or dismissed by Blackmore and others who support the Dying Brain Hypothesis"
The article goes on to list many of the impossible-to-refute features of legitimate NDE's---those studied under rigorous scientific sets of guidelines and which took place in difficult-to-refute places like operating rooms or places where medical personnel (who tended to be skeptical of such things) were present. One famous story recounts Maria, who in the OR had a NDE in which she floated to the rooftop of the hospital and saw a red tennis shoe up there. When back in her body she told one of her nurses, one Kimberly Clark to go up to the roof and retrieve it. Puzzled and skeptical, Clark went up, only to discover to her astonishment, that indeed there was a red tennis shoe lying on the rooftop, which she brought to Maria.
Kenneth Ring:
Quote:
"First and most importantly, there are many well documented cases where the NDEer while out of body were able to see specific details and hear conversations in other rooms and far away places that they couldn’t have known about beforehand, and yet upon returning to the body find that what they saw or heard was in fact verified to be accurate and true. This is a phenomena that skeptics and materialists still haven’t been able to explain away no matter how hard they try. Blackmore herself knows about these cases and even mentions them in her book, but she dismisses it simply by stating that she doesn’t believe them. This of course reflects the closed mental model of skeptics who dismiss facts and data that don’t fit into their hypotheses. If NDE’s and OBE’s were just dreams or hallucinations, then these perceptions at a distance wouldn’t turn out to be accurate. The separation of spirit from body or the mind’s ability to remote view are the best hypotheses that fit this well documented data. One famous example of this is the case of a nurse named Kimberly Clark."
There is so much evidence to refute the skeptics it would take an Encyclopedia Britannica to catalogue it all. This is but one article those who are curious about this phenomenon should peruse:
And I disagree this belongs in Science/Atheist discussion. I am Christian. So are most people taking part in this discussion. And this definitely has a religious (Christian) bent to it, at least insofar as I am trying to keep it on that track.
Haha LOL I caught that too Eusebius. I guess I'm just glad to see Thrillobyte focusing (or should I say obsessing?) about something other than the "rapture".
I don't believe there is such a thing as a NDE, it's simply that the person is not dead yet and the brain is still functioning in a dream-like state. The reason all the proposed NDE's are similar is because all brains always do the same thing when they are deprived of oxygen.....a brain is a brain is a brain.
Ilene, in all due respect, your wrong. A brain CANNOT function without blood and oxygen. If it could, the medical profession needs to find another method to declare someone dead. Any suggestions? Plus, why are there so many similar experiences amongst those reporting the NDE?
Take for example this idea as propounded by Solomon, Paul and other writers that upon death the spirit immediately goes into the presence of God.
My spirit is already with God. I don't need a video to help me know the presence of God in my life. I have only to seek God and I find God -- right here, right now.
Note that not one person--Christian or non-Christian---reports seeing anything that resembles a devil or demons. That sort of puts to rest the belief that people are immediately judged and sent to hell, doesn't it?
NDE and Afterlife Statistics (50 NDEs)
Overwhelming love (69%)
Mental telepathy (65%)
Life review (62%)
God (56%)
Tremendous ecstasy (56%)
Unlimited knowledge (46%)
Afterlife levels (46%)
Told not ready (46%)
Shown the future (44%)
Tunnel (42%)
Jesus (37%)
Forgotten knowledge (31%)
Fear (27%)
Homecoming (21%)
Told of past lives (21%)
Hell (19%)
City of light (17%)
Temple of Knowledge (13%)
Spirits among the living (10%)
Suicide (6%) Devil (0%)
Correction.....
Devil (0%).... it is actually Devil (0.001%) . You forgot Mary Baxter.
She describes the carnival going on in hell and the demon clowns, it is their amusement park reward where they torture humans for all of eternity.
Back to reality....Another good book on the subject is "Blessings in Disguise" by Dr. Barbara R. Rommer. She writes about the "less than positive" NDEs....and yes, even those have positive endings. Some souls are so bound to negative energies, the "hellish" experience they have is NECESSARY. It is the only thing that gets them out of their bondage.
Praise God He never gives up on anybody....we are ALL dear to Him, every last one of us.
Ilene, in all due respect, your wrong. A brain CANNOT function without blood and oxygen. If it could, the medical profession needs to find another method to declare someone dead. Any suggestions? Plus, why are there so many similar experiences amongst those reporting the NDE?
If the brain was not functioning, then it would not be storing the memories of the visions, but the memories are obviously there since the people talk about them.
If the brain was not functioning, then it would not be storing the memories of the visions, but the memories are obviously there since the people talk about them.
Sorry, that doesn't cut it. I don't need my physical brain to experience things..our true being is spirit including our thoughts..we live on, remembering and experiencing things outside of our body (during a NDE). I think of the brain as more of a receiver rather than the source of our thoughts.
Besides, your whole premise is totally flawed. Get this Finn.....once again, our physical brains cannot conjure up , think about or imagine anything WITHOUT blood and oxygen. IMPOSSIBLE. It is no different than saying my heart can beat without blood. But I know your debate style Finn, if there is reincarnation, you were probably one of the church leaders living in the 1400's that demanded ex-communication of anyone suggesting the earth was round and not the center of the universe.
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---that only die-hard hardcore atheists subscribe to the DB hypothesis anymore, which is ironic in Finn's case as he is a Christian, while the proponents of NDE's that are lining up by the hundreds are mostly atheist scientist-types. But here are some facts that you might find interesting: 
I guess I'm just glad to see Thrillobyte focusing (or should I say obsessing?) about something other than the "rapture".
