Think At Death Your Soul Goes Immediately To God's Presence?? Think Again!! (hell, punishment)
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We just absolutely have to acknowledge that the Bible has gotten a lot of things "wrong". I don't mean that the scriptures were originally wrong, but that through the hundreds of thousands of generations of translations over the millennia things just went totally awry with what we have come to call the "Bible--the 'inerrant' Word of God".
Take for example this idea as propounded by Solomon, Paul and other writers that upon death the spirit immediately goes into the presence of God. That may not necessarily be so. Below is one of the most convincing videos I have ever watched (and over the last month I have heard and read literally hundreds of stories of NDE's via the Internet and YouTube). For those who cannot watch the video because they still have dial-up I will summarize:
Renowned pioneer cardiac surgeon Dr. Lloyd Rudy is being interviewed about an incident that occurred during a cardiac operation where the patient had to be pronounced dead because the operation room personnel could not get the blood infused properly into the patient's body. So the bypass machine was turned off, the anesthesiologist was dismissed and the surgical tech instructed to stitch up the patient for autopsy prep. Unbeknownst to Rudy and the others, the monitors were accidentally left on. Now bear in mind that at the time the patient was "declared" he had no vitals, no heartbeat or brainwaves registering on the monitor. He was "flatline" in the parlance. For over 20 minutes Rudy and the assisting surgeon stood in the doorway discussing what went wrong and what they might have done better. Suddenly, the monitor began to register a faint heartbeat; then it got stronger and stronger until a BP of 100 registered. By this time the anesthesiologist had hurriedly been called back and the surgeons raced back to the table to attend the patient. That was astonishing enough, but what the surgeon says truly astonished him was that in recovery a few days later, the patient recounted to Rudy every last detail of the conversation that transpired between Rudy and the assistant as well as other details of what went on in the OR after he was declared dead. The patient said his spirit just floated around the room during the entire course of the conversation. Rudy doesn't indicate when the patient said he reentered his body, nor does Rudy indicate the man's faith, though I think the man would have readily admitted to being Christian if was. Coming from a renowned non-Christian surgeon who says he now believes there is "something out there", this is one of the strongest, most reliable stories of an NDE I have ever read but you really have to watch the video to get a sense of the power behind the surgeon's words.
Fundamentalists will probably argue, "Well obviously he wasn't really dead". Well, you try telling that to a world-famous surgeon who isn't in the habit of pronouncing his patients dead until he is 1000% certain they are dead. By any scientific measuring device known or used this patient was definitely dead, especially if he readily says his spirit hovered above the OR watching all the action for at least 20 minutes.
We just absolutely have to acknowledge that the Bible has gotten a lot of things "wrong". I don't mean that the scriptures were originally wrong, but that through the hundreds of thousands of generations of translations over the millennia things just went totally awry with what we have come to call the "Bible--the 'inerrant' Word of God".
RESPONSE:
If the Bible has been hopelessly corrupted, wouldn't people be foolish to base their faith on it now?
We just absolutely have to acknowledge that the Bible has gotten a lot of things "wrong". I don't mean that the scriptures were originally wrong, but that through the hundreds of thousands of generations of translations over the millennia things just went totally awry with what we have come to call the "Bible--the 'inerrant' Word of God".
Take for example this idea as propounded by Solomon, Paul and other writers that upon death the spirit immediately goes into the presence of God. That may not necessarily be so. Below is one of the most convincing videos I have ever watched (and over the last month I have heard and read literally hundreds of stories of NDE's via the Internet and YouTube).
How does your story prove that believers do not go to be with the Lord? Do you think this guy's spirit was going to stay in the operating room forever?
If the Bible has been hopelessly corrupted, wouldn't people be foolish to base their faith on it now?
Doctrines, dogmas, theologies came into being based upon the Greek and Hebrew texts, translations were made into other languages, translations that supported those doctrines, dogmas, theologies, and here we are.
What are those doctrines, dogmas, theologies that are called into question as we go back to the sources and study the originals texts?
Seems to me the two big ones are unending punishment and salvation by faith without works. Others might be able to come up with a couple more. Primacy of Peter might be another.
How does your story prove that believers do not go to be with the Lord? Do you think this guy's spirit was going to stay in the operating room forever?
I don't think that was my point, Finn. My point was that when a person expires their soul doesn't necessarily "fly away" to the Lord immediately after death, as this guy's case readily proves. Quite the opposite in hundreds of thousands of reports (and remember there are over a million "verified" cases) their spirits actually "hang around" often for quite some time before either entering the tunnel or returning to their body.
In actuality, except for the similarities that appear to be prevalent in most cases (the tunnel, the Light at the end of the tunnel, meeting the spirits of departed relatives and friends, and the life review) the individual details are as varied as the people themselves who experience NDE's. By that I mean one reports flying through a field of beautiful flowers, another walks into a room full of mirrors, another speeds through space as bright lights whiz by.
Quote:
NDE and Afterlife Statistics (50 NDEs)
Overwhelming love (69%)
Mental telepathy (65%)
Life review (62%)
God (56%)
Tremendous ecstasy (56%)
Unlimited knowledge (46%)
Afterlife levels (46%)
Told not ready (46%)
Shown the future (44%)
Tunnel (42%)
Jesus (37%)
Forgotten knowledge (31%)
Fear (27%)
Homecoming (21%)
Told of past lives (21%)
Hell (19%)
City of light (17%)
Temple of Knowledge (13%)
Spirits among the living (10%)
Suicide (6%) Devil (0%)
Note that not one person--Christian or non-Christian---reports seeing anything that resembles a devil or demons. That sort of puts to rest the belief that people are immediately judged and sent to hell, doesn't it?
I don't think that was my point, Finn. My point was that when a person expires their soul doesn't necessarily "fly away" to the Lord immediately after death, as this guy's case readily proves. Quite the opposite in hundreds of thousands of reports (and remember there are over a million "verified" cases) their spirits actually "hang around" often for quite some time before either entering the tunnel or returning to their body.
In actuality, except for the similarities that appear to be prevalent in most cases (the tunnel, the Light at the end of the tunnel, meeting the spirits of departed relatives and friends, and the life review) the individual details are as varied as the people themselves who experience NDE's. By that I mean one reports flying through a field of beautiful flowers, another walks into a room full of mirrors, another speeds through space as bright lights whiz by.
Note that not one person--Christian or non-Christian---reports seeing anything that resembles a devil or demons. That sort of puts to rest the belief that people are immediately judged and sent to hell, doesn't it?
IMO they 'hang out' near their body because it is not their time to go. Tunnels of light etc are dreams and illusions generated by the brain which obvipously still has activity. If the brain was dead, it would not be able to register the visions to memory. None of these people were actually dead.
IMO they 'hang out' near their body because it is not their time to go. Tunnels of light etc are dreams and illusions generated by the brain which obvipously still has activity. If the brain was dead, it would not be able to register the visions to memory. None of these people were actually dead.
But wait. This was just one case of a "dead" person "hanging out" near their body. Thousands of narratives from NDE'ers indicate they watched the scene from above the room as paramedics or doctors worked frantically to save them and were able to recount precise details before entering the tunnel, flying toward the Light, feeling an incredible sense of unconditional love as they approached the Light and meeting dead relatives along the way. Doctors are skeptical about these experiences until the patients recount in precise detail what was going on in the OR, what was said, describing OR procedures in explicit detail, even what was going on in adjoining OR's in some cases. All this while the monitors indicate they are flatlined with the EKG and EEG showing absolutely no brain or heart activity. Now if their spirits are not separated from their bodies and watching all this then how are they able to recount exactly what went on?
In one case Pam Reynolds while clinically dead was able to accurately describe the bone saw being used to cut her skull open during the operation and the box that contained the various bits that attach to it that Dr's were reaching into. She said the the saw looked like an electric toothbrush and the box looked like the drill bits in her own father's box for his contractor's drill. Thing is even doctors outside the neurosurgery field don't know what this saw looks like, so specialized a piece of equipment is it. Just watch the first 2 minutes or so of the video below.
But wait. This was just one case of a "dead" person "hanging out" near their body. Thousands of narratives from NDE'ers indicate they watched the scene from above the room as paramedics or doctors worked frantically to save them and were able to recount precise details before entering the tunnel, flying toward the Light, feeling an incredible sense of unconditional love as they approached the Light and meeting dead relatives along the way. Doctors are skeptical about these experiences until the patients recount in precise detail what was going on in the OR, what was said, describing OR procedures in explicit detail, even what was going on in adjoining OR's in some cases. All this while the monitors indicate they are flatlined with the EKG and EEG showing absolutely no brain or heart activity. Now if their spirits are not separated from their bodies and watching all this then how are they able to recount exactly what went on?
In one case Pam Reynolds while clinically dead was able to accurately describe the bone saw being used to cut her skull open during the operation and the box that contained the various bits that attach to it that Dr's were reaching into. She said the the saw looked like an electric toothbrush and the box looked like the drill bits in her own father's box for his contractor's drill. Thing is even doctors outside the neurosurgery field don't know what this saw looks like, so specialized a piece of equipment is it. Just watch the first 2 minutes or so of the video below.
When it is your time to go, you will go and won't come back. If you never left, or 'hung out' and watched the operation, then obviously it was not your time. The tunnels and visions of relatives etc are dreams, and fabrications of your brain, which is not dead at that point. I think you are reading too much into these nde reports, and worse, you are drawing your own conclusions from them thinking everyone is going to the same place.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 06-04-2012 at 12:04 PM..
Why are you putting man's faulty conclusions of "science falsely called so" over what the Scriptures say?
While Science means knowledge which by definition can not be wrong, mankind's conclusions have been proven wrong time after time again.
So this doesn't really prove anything, but just someone's conclusion of what they think by attempting to observe a spiritual phenomenon from from a physical perspective.
I believe what God says in his word and let "God be true and every man a liar."
I believe when you need to see how the machine works, we should look at the owner's manual.
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