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The Bible does not even teach that people go to hell after they die. People (sinners) go to hades, and stay there until they are judged after the 1000 kingdom. How can you say the Bible is faulty when you have not even read it? Also, the Bible says nothing about "immediately" as if you go somewhere the second you close your eyes. It takes time for the brain to die, and as your studies say, during that time the brain goes through these sensations, and you see visions etc, but they are still coming from your brain, and the reason you remember them, is the simple fact that the brain was NOT dead, and registered your memories, or dreams in this case. These people may have been going through the first stages of dying, but they were not dead, the brain was still alive.
The Bible teaches that the spirit returns to God who gave it life. Paul says that he longs to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord. The word "immediately" is not in the Bible, true, but the spirit would have to go somewhere in the interim, wouldn't it? Where does the Bible say it goes in between death and when it goes before God?
And nowhere does the Bible say that "sinners go to hades, and stay there until they are judged after the 1000 kingdom." That is pure conjecture on your part based on dogma that has been fed you by the church establishment from the time you became a Christian.
Again, you evade responding how the millions of visions that are occurring share such commonality with each other when people from totally diverse religious, cultural, racial, ethnic, geographical backgrounds are experiencing them. Also you again evade responding how people totally "out of it" (dead clinically) can recount with "dead"-on accuracy what transpired in the OR while they were clinically dead, and by any neurosurgeon's estimation could not have known what was happening. For example you again totally evaded responding to how Pam Reynold was able to describe in precise detail the surgical saw used on her when the surgeon who operated readily admitted it was covered up in the OR and she was already "out" when she was wheeled in, hence she had absolutely no opportunity to see what it looked like before or after the operation until she described it to the surgeon who operated on her. So how could she know what it looked like unless her spirit was observing the scene from above as she claims and as atheist doctors reluctantly concede was probably the case?
The modern Bible---which, in and of itself, is hardly a reliable source to pin your beliefs on when it comes to the destiny of the spirit, says man's spirit immediately departs upon death to appear before God to be judged and either admitted into heaven or cast into hell. None of the hundreds of verified NDE's studied by atheist doctors related a single incident of the person meeting the devil or demons or being cast into flames, in stark contrast to rubbish put out by kooks like Mary K Baxter and George Weiss, who had no medical verification for anything they claim to have experienced as found in their books, which were obviously put out to make money for the publishers and themselves.
I showed you in post #6 the results of clinical studies. None of these people met the wrathful, judgmental God depicted in the King James bible. On the contrary, non-Christians most frequently met an overwhelming loving, non-judgmental Supreme Being who pointed out their flaws and then had them escorted back to their earthly realm. It was the Christians who most frequently had the most unpleasant experiences, not surprisingly, because of impressions of hell and damnation from the Bible made on their psyche all through their lives regarding would happen to them if they felt they were dying in a state of sin.
There are two Judgments actually. One is at the Bema seat of Christ for the Saved (prior to the Millennium), and one is at the Great White Throne for the unsaved (after the Millennium). So Judgment isn't automatic anyways. Where we find out where we are is however. Either we're with the Lord or we are "lifting up our eyes" in torments.
Considering everything the Bible warns us about would happen prior to the second coming of Christ - World Government, World Religion, biometric/microchip Technology, scoffers, apostasy, etc - it's very easy to believe the Bible is very reliable.
I guess we'll see right? Anything to escape personal accountability to a Creator. People will weasel their way around all sorts of beliefs just to escape this.
A very unpopular belief is our Maker is going to Judge his creatures. It doesn't mean it is not true.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 06-04-2012 at 03:33 PM..
The Bible teaches that the spirit returns to God who gave it life. Paul says that he longs to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord. The word "immediately" is not in the Bible, true, but the spirit would have to go somewhere in the interim, wouldn't it? Where does the Bible say it goes in between death and when it goes before God?
It doesn't go anywhere in between. The people you are talking about were NOT dead, which is why they did not go anywhere.
When a believer dies he/she goes to be with the Lord, not before.
It doesn't go anywhere in between. The people you are talking about were NOT dead, which is why they did not go anywhere.
When a believer dies he/she goes to be with the Lord, not before.
I'll give you that, Finn. Now to my other question:
1. How do the millions of visions that are occurring share such commonality with each other when the people experiencing them come from totally diverse religious, cultural, racial, ethnic, geographical backgrounds, making it impossible for them to collude to make them sound the same?
2. How do people totally "out of it" (dead clinically) recount with "dead"-on accuracy what transpired in the OR while they were clinically dead, and by any neurosurgeon's estimation could not have known what was happening?
3. How could Pam Reynold describe in precise detail the surgical saw used on her when the surgeon who operated readily admitted it was covered up in the OR and she was already "out" when she was wheeled in, hence she had absolutely no opportunity to see what it looked like before or after the operation until she described it to the surgeon who operated on her, unless her spirit was observing the scene from above as she claims and as atheist doctors reluctantly concede was probably the case?
1. How do the millions of visions that are occurring share such commonality with each other when the people experiencing them come from totally diverse religious, cultural, racial, ethnic, geographical backgrounds, making it impossible for them to collude to make them sound the same?
They all have human brains, so you would expect the results to such situation be similar. They experienced he early stages of process which can result to dying, but in their case it did not.
Quote:
2. How do people totally "out of it" (dead clinically) recount with "dead"-on accuracy what transpired in the OR while they were clinically dead, and by any neurosurgeon's estimation could not have known what was happening?
3. How could Pam Reynold describe in precise detail the surgical saw used on her when the surgeon who operated readily admitted it was covered up in the OR and she was already "out" when she was wheeled in, hence she had absolutely no opportunity to see what it looked like before or after the operation until she described it to the surgeon who operated on her, unless her spirit was observing the scene from above as she claims and as atheist doctors reluctantly concede was probably the case?
Just answer those three question for me.
Out of body experiences can occur. Some people experience them from time to time, and they do not have to be a part of NDE. They can even be induced by electric stimulation or drugs. You are jumping into conclusions when you read these NDE articles. Most of out of body experiences are not related to NDEs, and probably majority of the NDE reports came from people who were in fact not in risk of death.
A whole lot of NDE testimonies of going to Hell/Sheol and back. Watch the series.
Mike, it's a 29-part series. And based on what I watched it's based mostly on the Fundamentalist church establishment's official dogma for this type of thing. The few NDE's I saw from other parts at other times are not verified as having happened under clinical conditions where they could be analyzed by scientists, such as Pam Reynold's experience. Mostly they are just accounts of people who claim to have gone to hell as Mary Baxter and Tom Weiss do. I could just as easily put together a similar account, write a book and make a million bucks if I had the inclination to do so. Interestingly, Maurice Rawlings, noted cardiologist, has put together a video entitled "To Hell and Back" in which he gives similar accounts as what are talked about in your series but he is a dye-in-the-wool ET'er with an agenda so his "science is totally biased, unlike scientists who study these as atheists and come away rethinking their position after seeing the evidence.
They all have human brains, so you would expect the results to such situation be similar. They experienced he early stages of process which can result to dying, but in their case it did not.
Out of body experiences can occur. Some people experience them from time to time, and they do not have to be a part of NDE. They can even be induced by electric stimulation or drugs. You are jumping into conclusions when you read these NDE articles. Most of out of body experiences are not related to NDEs, and probably majority of the NDE reports came from people who were in fact not in risk of death.
Your use of the word "probably" tells me you have not gone into any depth studying both sides of the issue as I have. You're convinced they're the result of brain hypoxia, and not being willing to examine the evidence, there's nowhere else to go in our discussion unfortunately. Cheers.
Your use of the word "probably" tells me you have not gone into any depth studying both sides of the issue as I have. You're convinced they're the result of brain hypoxia, and not being willing to examine the evidence, there's nowhere else to go in our discussion unfortunately. Cheers.
Do you have the exact number? Is it relevant? You did not examine the 29 videos, so I guess it is indeed time for "cheers".
The discussion started to veer dangerously into the territory of eternal torment which was not my intention with starting this thread. To recap, what I was trying to point out was that as scientists of no religious persuasion study these phenomena, they are becoming more and more convinced that the consciousness can exist apart from brain death, as science defines "brain death". The proof is in the pudding as they say and scientists are at a loss to explain how people experiencing these episodes recount nearly exact accounts of what transpired across diverse cultural, religious and geographical backgrounds. Contrary to what the Fundamentalist Church hierarchy would like us to believe, which is that only Christians can experience a pleasant NDE while non-Christians would likely experience a terrifying one involving pain, demons, hell-fire and the devil, in fact, by and large, it is the non-Christians who have the pleasant experiences while it is primarily the Christians who experience the LTP (less-than-positive) NDE's. As an example, Kenneth Hagin relates that he was born and raised a Southern Baptist. As a child, he first made his commitment to Christ and was baptized with water. He was a member of the church all his life. He was saved, on the path toward heaven, a believer, a follower of Jesus, and he knew this assured him a place in heaven. Nevertheless, he says he had a NDE and it sent him straight to hell.
The millions of accounts given over the last 50 years center primarily on these tenants:
1. Doctrine and creed and race mean nothing. No matter what we believe we were all children joined under one God. The only rule is God's true law: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
2. God does not care which religion is best. God does not care what religion people practice. They are all a blooming facet of the whole. All religions refer to the same God.
3. Everyone, religious or not, believing in God or not, transitions to the spirit world as part of the natural process of life. Just as one does not need to be religious to live in the physical world, one does not need to profess a particular faith to live in the spirit world.
4. Heaven is about deeds, not creeds. Therefore, persons of many cultures and religions form the societies of heaven.
5. Religious beliefs have little to do with what we experience in the transition from one realm to another, except that we are allowed to see briefly the teacher or guru that we followed. Regardless of cultural or religious beliefs, we have the same basic experience at death.
6. God is not dependent on our belief, for our belief or disbelief in God does not affect God - only us.
7. God cares little about our religious affiliation or church membership. Love is not limited to any one religion or even religion at all. Religions are cultural institutions but love is universal.
8. God is not a member of any church or religion. It is the churches and the religions that are members within the vastness and the glory that is God. There is no one religion just as there is no chosen people or person, nor any single way of regarding what cannot be fully comprehended. We are all sons of God in the sense that we are all souls of God's creation, without gender, without form, without nationality, complete and whole and perfect as we explore the never-endingness of God's wonderment.
9. Having faith in Christ doesn't matter as much as having the faith of Christ. It is foolish to think that Jesus will carry your cross for you because he taught people that they must take up their own cross. Having the faith of Christ means to practice unconditional love.
10. There is a lot of solid evidence in the Bible itself that the Bible has serious and devastating errors in it. (Kevin Williams)
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