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...Christians, as Bible-believers and reliant on their faith, are pretty much expected to suspend logic and therefore rely solely upon the actual words contained in their Holy Book.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
I suppose some Christians are expected to do that, but not all of us are.
I realize that. But, at the end of the day, the Bible is the authority of the average Christian.
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Therefore it doesn’t really matter what I might believe since my beliefs or my un-beliefs are oftentimes based on unverifiable information to begin with. No one knows everything. The only information I have available to me regarding Creation is the Bible story. There is no absolutely reliable scientific paper available that provides this information.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
You're right about one thing: There is a lot we don't know. But if the Bible is all you have available to you on the Creation, I see that as truly unfortunate.
You have access to another Creation story?
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
My point in asking the question I did, though, was that if the Earth was created over a period of 4.5 billion years, did the Creation start on a Sunday and end on a Saturday? Did the creation start 4 billion, 496 million, 715 thousand, 988 years, 10 months, 2 weeks and 3 days ago? The idea that the 7th day must refer to Saturday only really makes sense if one believes in a literal six 24-hour-day creation followed by a seventh day when God rested and has commanded man to do the same.
Well, I'm afraid I have to go back to the Bible again because, whatever else you or I might believe to the contrary, the Bible is what we're discussing here. And, according to the Bible, the 24-hour day as being a LITERAL day is ESTABLISHED in the Creation account.* There is no question about this. We're told that the first day, the second day, the third day, etc. consisted of two 12-hour periods, i.e. a morning and an evening totaling 24-hours. Whatever we today determine is the age of the earth is a separate issue to the one under discussion here, i.e. the biblical account. The billions of years you mention IS NOT what the Genesis story tells us. No, we're told quite clearly in Genesis that a week consists of a 7-day cycle ...each day being 24-hours long.
As I mentioned before, the Genesis account is where WE today get our weekly cycle from consisting of seven 24-hour days. Moreover, as also mentioned previously, the Genesis account, though obviously an allegory, had/has a significant meaning behind it that meant something to both Jesus and Paul and maybe to 'us' also.
* Credit needs to be given to the author of the Genesis account. They evidently had a fair knowledge of astrophysics to have known that 'a 24-hour day' is approximately the period of time during which the Earth completes one rotation around its axis.
If this doesn't cause people to question the rationality of worrying about which day to do what, then nothing will, Katz. Human perversity knows no bounds.
I don't know anyone who is 'worrying' about the topic under discussion. We're here to discuss a subject that was raised by the OP. I frankly don't care one iota which day one chooses as 'special' ...or no day at all for that matter. However, rather than offering vague 'one-liners' to the topic how about you actually discuss what the Christian Holy Book says about the topic? That's all I'm doing. Whether you agree with me or not I'm certainly not letting this bother me so don't kid yourself. I'm simply making a case for what the Bible - and not the individual and their personal thoughts - has to say on the topic.
I realize that. But, at the end of the day, the Bible is the authority of the average Christian.
You have access to another Creation story?
Well, I'm afraid I have to go back to the Bible again because, whatever else you or I might believe to the contrary, the Bible is what we're discussing here. And, according to the Bible, the 24-hour day as being a LITERAL day is ESTABLISHED in the Creation account.* There is no question about this. We're told that the first day, the second day, the third day, etc. consisted of two 12-hour periods, i.e. a morning and an evening totaling 24-hours. Whatever we today determine is the age of the earth is a separate issue to the one under discussion here, i.e. the biblical account. The billions of years you mention IS NOT what the Genesis story tells us. No, we're told quite clearly in Genesis that a week consists of a 7-day cycle ...each day being 24-hours long.
As I mentioned before, the Genesis account is where WE today get our weekly cycle from consisting of seven 24-hour days. Moreover, as also mentioned previously, the Genesis account, though obviously an allegory, had/has a significant meaning behind it that meant something to both Jesus and Paul and maybe to 'us' also.
* Credit needs to be given to the author of the Genesis account. They evidently had a fair knowledge of astrophysics to have known that 'a 24-hour day' is approximately the period of time during which the Earth completes one rotation around its axis.
I can understand that this is your rationale, but it is coming from the point of view that the Bible is to be taken literally. This is something I don't believe to be the case. Evidently, this is something on which we're simply going to have to agree to disagree because neither of us is going to change the other's beliefs.
I can understand that this is your rationale, but it is coming from the point of view that the Bible is to be taken literally. This is something I don't believe to be the case. Evidently, this is something on which we're simply going to have to agree to disagree because neither of us is going to change the other's beliefs.
Many Christian 'beliefs' are so ambiguous and unclear that they oftentimes leave us to wondering ...just what ARE the beliefs that are held by those who claim allegiance to the same Bible?
But alright. So let us discard much of the Bible as being non-literal and just concentrate on one specific area of the Old Testament ...the Ten Commandments.
While most of us will, I think, agree that commands 5-10 are pretty much sound commands to live by whether one is Jew or Gentile ...what of commands 1-4? Are commands 5-10 literal but commands 1-4 non-literal?
Or, maybe there is common agreement among Christians that the last 6 commands should be kept (not for legalistic reasons but because they're clearly 'right') while having a tendency to ignore the first four because they're NOT relevant for today, even though these same Christians claim allegiance to a Creator God?
Or, does the average Christian agree that ALL but the 4th-command are 'sort of' applicable for a Christian to follow today but, um, ah, not really? Or, is the average Christian expected to toss out ALL of the commandments - as well as the Old Testament itself - since they are not Jews but are now under some new covenant of grace and are among the faithful elect anyway just as long as they can mouth the words, "I believe in Jesus" . . .? Didn't I read somewhere that 'faith without works is dead" ...? So, just what ARE those 'works' that are spoken of? They seem to imply voluntary action of some description.
Please bear in mind that 'the law' as per the Bible never saved anyone and that 'grace' was not something that was just offered to 'privileged' Christians. The only 'new covenant' that was given was that all of the sacrifices and rituals that pointed to the Messiah (of which the 7th-day Sabbath was not) were now abolished ...nailed to the cross.
Anyway, how do YOU (whoever) view the Ten Commandments? PLEASE give a convincing BIBLICAL answer to that question rather than the tiresome ambiguous 'fluff' that has been preached over and over from the pulpits of those churches that jump through hoops in attempts to justify their having chosen to ignore the 4th-command.
By the way, I'm not meaning to make this personal. I'm just contributing to a thread initiated by the OP.
Anyway, how do YOU (whoever) view the Ten Commandments? PLEASE give a convincing BIBLICAL answer to that question rather than the tiresome ambiguous 'fluff' that has been preached over and over from the pulpits of those churches that jump through hoops in attempts to justify their having chosen to ignore the 4th-command.
By the way, I'm not meaning to make this personal. I'm just contributing to a thread initiated by the OP.
You know, I'm going to go with 1 Samuel 16:17, which states that "the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." I believe that the 4th commandment is instructing us to set aside every seventh day for worship and rest. Now that's what I do, and I do it with a clear conscience. I am not ignoring the 4th commandment.
God commanded Israel to remember the Sabbath, he did not command Gentiles or the Church to remember it. Israel was to remember and keep the Sabbath because it was a special sign between between Israel and God. The Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law.
Nowhere in the Bible is it said that the Sabbath was observed by anyone before Israel was given the command to observe it as a day of rest because they were to remember their slavery in Egypt and their deliverance from that slavery by God as per Deuteronomy 5:15. While Exodus 31:17 mentions the Sabbath in connection with the six days of creation (which while Biblical is not scientifically correct) it is also stated in that same passage that the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel. It further states that anyone who does any work on the Sabbath is to be put to death.
So for those who insist that the Sabbath command is in effect for the church, logically then so would the command to put to death anyone in the church who does any work on the Sabbath. Are do you pick and choose which commands are still valid and which aren't?
The whole argument that the Sabbath applies to the church is ridiculous and demonstrates ignorance concerning the dispensational differences between Israel and the church. As mentioned before, Jesus is the churches Sabbath or rest. Not a day of the week.
While nine of the ten commandments do come down to the church, they do so not as part of the Mosaic law, but as principles of freedom. If you steal or murder someone for instance, you take away their freedom to own property or to live. The Sabbath command on the other hand has not come down to the church, and as Paul said,
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17] These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
The Sabbath which Paul mentions includes the 7th day Sabbath, not just the Sabbaths that are part of Israel's celebrations which occurred as certain times of the year. If someone chooses to keep it, fine. If someone chooses not to keep it, fine.
The church can worship God at any time, on any day. But because Jesus was raised on a Sunday, that is when the church, from the beginning, has chosen for worship. That doesn't mean that Sunday is the Sabbath. It's simply the churches day of worship.
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God Commands Us to Remember the Sabbath Day, to Keep It Holy! Do You Keep God's Seventh-Day Sabbath Holy?
