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The problem is that Preterists completely fail to understand a very simple principle in scripture with regard to prophetic passages. In order to spotlight this often overlooked but absolutely essential principle we have given it a name. We call this principle Transcendence, or the principle of the Transcendent "You."
Transcendence is the Biblical phenomenon that occurs in PROPHETIC PASSAGES by which God speaks to an immediate physical audience, such as the apostles or the Israelites of Moses day for example, but is actually addressing future unborn generations with just as much certainty and absoluteness
In Matthew 16:28, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Regarding this verse, Preterists boldly take the position that Jesus was emphasizing that some of them would still be alive and witness His Second Coming. However, this is not what Jesus was saying! In this verse, Jesus was referring to His transfiguration, which would take place six days later (Matthew 17:1-5). On that day, He took Peter, James and John. It was then that they beheld His glory and His majesty, when His face shone like the sun. Peter, who was there, indicates in 2Peter 1:16-18 that, at this holy mount, they witnessed the "power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" as follows
I had a whole long post written up and I lost it! GRRRR! Well, here goes again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
It is not a problem if one remembers that Christ's kingdom is not of this world! It is in that kingdom that Christ now reigns not on this earth.
Preterist
Agreed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
sharingthetruth: The tribulation occurred in A.D. 66 to A.D. 70. It was to be endured by those saints of Jesus' generation (see Matthew 24). It was a time of His vindication against the Jews of Matthew 23 who were guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. They killed all the prophets sent to them and His chosen ones--they were judged by God through the Roman armies in A.D. 70. Hundreds of thousands died and more were taken into captivity. The temple was forever destroyed and the Old Covenant nation was forever enslaved throughout the nations.
Preterist
Good points... I have heard this explanation for the tribulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
cg81: I don't agree. We are not living in the last days. The last days took place prior to A.D. 70. They refer to the last days of the Mosaic economy and not the last days of the earth. Even the writer of Hebrews said, "hath in THESE last days, spoken to us through His Son."
Preterist
After Christ ascended and the Holy Spirit came on the believers, they realized that they were in the final dispensation... reigning in Christ's kingdom on earth, and the scriptures had been fulfilled regarding the coming of the Messiah. The only thing left to happen was Jesus second coming to gather His saints home... As Christians today have no idea when Christ will come again, so they did not either... they could expect Him any time. Christians throughout history, as they looked at the world around them, have realized that they were living in "the last days". I believe this is a God-given vision... we should be ready and waiting at all times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
debbee: Have you consider the time restraints placed upon the book of Revelation in both the first and last chapters?
John was to be shown those things which were in his day to "SHORTLY take place" becaue the "time was AT HAND." The book of Revelation, then, must be seen in that time reference. It involves historical events (A.D. 66-70) and not event still future to us.
Preterist
Yes, some historical events were shortly to take place.. and God's kingdom was at hand. John saw this being fulfilled as one complete package being fulfilled... the salvation story and God's plan for mankind. Up untill now this had just been a hope, looking forward to. Included in this vision was events towards the end time and Jesus second coming to judge the world... God's plan in motion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
"This generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Matthew 24:34).
tribulation? also coming of the kingdom.
Quote:
"YOU [the Twelve] will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Matthew 10:23).
Since Jesus has not come yet, and is not promised to come until He comes in the clouds to judge the world, there are several possibilities... either He was talking about His coming to reign in our hearts, or about the fact that most of the Jews would not accept the Christian way...
Quote:
"There are some standing here who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28).
Spiritual reign of Christ with believers.
Quote:
"YOU [Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 26:64).
Second coming of Christ at the end of the world.
Quote:
"The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8).
"The end of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7).
As stated above, they realized that this was the new and final dispensation... prophecy had been fulfilled, and Jesus could come any time..
Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973
The problem is that Preterists completely fail to understand a very simple principle in scripture with regard to prophetic passages. In order to spotlight this often overlooked but absolutely essential principle we have given it a name. We call this principle Transcendence, or the principle of the Transcendent "You."
Transcendence is the Biblical phenomenon that occurs in PROPHETIC PASSAGES by which God speaks to an immediate physical audience, such as the apostles or the Israelites of Moses day for example, but is actually addressing future unborn generations with just as much certainty and absoluteness
I had a whole long post written up and I lost it! GRRRR! Well, here goes again...
Agreed!
Good points... I have heard this explanation for the tribulation.
After Christ ascended and the Holy Spirit came on the believers, they realized that they were in the final dispensation... reigning in Christ's kingdom on earth, and the scriptures had been fulfilled regarding the coming of the Messiah. The only thing left to happen was Jesus second coming to gather His saints home... As Christians today have no idea when Christ will come again, so they did not either... they could expect Him any time. Christians throughout history, as they looked at the world around them, have realized that they were living in "the last days". I believe this is a God-given vision... we should be ready and waiting at all times.
Yes, some historical events were shortly to take place.. and God's kingdom was at hand. John saw this being fulfilled as one complete package being fulfilled... the salvation story and God's plan for mankind. Up untill now this had just been a hope, looking forward to. Included in this vision was events towards the end time and Jesus second coming to judge the world... God's plan in motion.
tribulation? also coming of the kingdom.
Since Jesus has not come yet, and is not promised to come until He comes in the clouds to judge the world, there are several possibilities... either He was talking about His coming to reign in our hearts, or about the fact that most of the Jews would not accept the Christian way...
Spiritual reign of Christ with believers.
Second coming of Christ at the end of the world.
As stated above, they realized that this was the new and final dispensation... prophecy had been fulfilled, and Jesus could come any time..
Good point!
Transcendant YOU? Huh? I am an English major and I have never seen that in ANY English grammar book! No one would have ever thought this up unless they had to in order to justify their beliefs! Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples about things that were to happen to THEM. That is why He said THIS generation and not THAT generation.
cg81, your post is full of the spiritualization that preterists are so often condemned for.
Physical Caiaphas and the physical Sanhedrin were to with their own eyes see Christ "coming on the clouds of heaven." The same is true of Matthew 10 and 16. Jesus came back to THEM. That is what these verses say.
James said "The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8).
The things that John was shown were to SHORTLY take place in his day. In case we might get confused, he was told the same thing in the last chapter. Everything in between involved those things that were then SHORTLY to take place.
Preterism as a system is untenable, indefensible, and should be rejected outright.
The Bible encompasses human history from its inception to its end. It accurately taught history in advance, as it were; the dead-accurate prophecies of Moses, Isaiah, and others demonstrated God's Word's accuracy and divine origin.
The Bible also encompasses the entirety of human history this side of the Eternal State. Genesis describes in perfect detail the Beginning, and the Revelation (and other passages) predicts the End.
Preterism knocks out one of those "bookends." It leaves one with the feeling that Jesus' return is far, far off, when in fact it is very near. This is borne out by reading the works of preterists attacking dispensational eschatology. The chief aspect which is ridiculed seems to be the Doctrine of Imminency. This is Paul's teaching that Jesus' return is an "it-can-happen-at-any-moment" kind of thing.
Preterists believe that the "last days prophecies" have ALREADY been fulfilled in A.D.70, when JerBliplem was destroyed by Rome. I view this revival of Preterism as a fulfillment of premillennial prophecy itself. The Bible predicted "scoffers" in the last days, who would mock the fulfillment of Bible prophecy in regard to the second coming (2Pet.3:3). The current popularity of (Preterist) books by R.C. Sproul, and others, is now setting the stage for this prophecy in 2 Pet.3:3. I do find it amazing. We have blip back again as a nation. (I know some Preterists continue to deny that they are "real" blips. But ask a modern Muslim what he thinks about that. All his animosity isn't for nothing!) We also have weather changes and increases in earthquakes. We have a revival of Rome uniting all religions. All we need is the "scoffers" to show up to a degree to justify the Holy Spirit mentioning it as a sign in the Bible. And now we have it. Just when the stage is almost perfectly in place for the Tribulation to begin (the time when one would least expect a revival of Preterism!), here it comes. The Bible is amazing.
Preterism as a system is untenable, indefensible, and should be rejected outright.
The Bible encompasses human history from its inception to its end. It accurately taught history in advance, as it were; the dead-accurate prophecies of Moses, Isaiah, and others demonstrated God's Word's accuracy and divine origin.
The Bible also encompasses the entirety of human history this side of the Eternal State. Genesis describes in perfect detail the Beginning, and the Revelation (and other passages) predicts the End.
Preterism knocks out one of those "bookends." It leaves one with the feeling that Jesus' return is far, far off, when in fact it is very near. This is borne out by reading the works of preterists attacking dispensational eschatology. The chief aspect which is ridiculed seems to be the Doctrine of Imminency. This is Paul's teaching that Jesus' return is an "it-can-happen-at-any-moment" kind of thing.
Preterists believe that the "last days prophecies" have ALREADY been fulfilled in A.D.70, when JerBliplem was destroyed by Rome. I view this revival of Preterism as a fulfillment of premillennial prophecy itself. The Bible predicted "scoffers" in the last days, who would mock the fulfillment of Bible prophecy in regard to the second coming (2Pet.3:3). The current popularity of (Preterist) books by R.C. Sproul, and others, is now setting the stage for this prophecy in 2 Pet.3:3. I do find it amazing. We have blip back again as a nation. (I know some Preterists continue to deny that they are "real" blips. But ask a modern Muslim what he thinks about that. All his animosity isn't for nothing!) We also have weather changes and increases in earthquakes. We have a revival of Rome uniting all religions. All we need is the "scoffers" to show up to a degree to justify the Holy Spirit mentioning it as a sign in the Bible. And now we have it. Just when the stage is almost perfectly in place for the Tribulation to begin (the time when one would least expect a revival of Preterism!), here it comes. The Bible is amazing.
adrenaline2: Sorry, but I do not communicate with people who know so little about a subject on their own that they resort to copying and pasting in order to refute someone else's beliefs. The above, taken from Michael D. Macon's "The Problem With Preterism" is not the result of your own study and serious investigation of the arguments of preterism. All you know is what someone has told--preterism is wrong and of the Devil! Case closed.
You also copied from Joey Faust's "Preterism Refuted." Please give credit where credit is do. These people, even though I strongly disagree with them, took the time to organize their thoughts and write their articles. We can at least acknowledge that.
I mean no disrespect, but if you cannot in your own words as a result of your own personal investigation refute the things I have written, than you have no right to post the words of others in an attempt to discredit me.
How do you know Macon is right? How do you know Faust is right? Have you investigated Scripture to check out whether what they are saying is true? It is a dangerous thing to blindly rely on the teachings of others. Can you prove that futurism is true and preterism is false?
Be a good Berean. Please, study the Scriptures for yourself, daily, to see if what anyone is telling you is true.
In 70 AD, which was the fulfillment of Luke 21:24, Israel was led away captive into all nations. In retrospect, according to Matthew 24:29-31, a gathering of the elect is prophesied. Logically speaking, a 'scattering' and a 'gathering' cannot take place at the same time.
So, let us reason together. Luke 21:24 reveals that after the scattering of Israel, a period of "the fullness of the Gentiles" would take place. This is called the church age and, when Jesus is finished building His church, Luke 21:24 as well as Romans 11:25 advise that the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. After coming to this realization, it becomes quite clear that, when Jesus said that "this generation" would not pass in Matthew 24:34, He was referring to the future generation that would be gathered to witness His Second Coming after the church age is completed. Taking Luke 21:24 into consideration, this would occur after the fullness of the Gentiles. As Romans 11:26 states, after the fullness of the Gentiles (v. 25), "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
In 70 AD, which was the fulfillment of Luke 21:24, Israel was led away captive into all nations. In retrospect, according to Matthew 24:29-31, a gathering of the elect is prophesied. Logically speaking, a 'scattering' and a 'gathering' cannot take place at the same time.
So, let us reason together. Luke 21:24 reveals that after the scattering of Israel, a period of "the fullness of the Gentiles" would take place. This is called the church age and, when Jesus is finished building His church, Luke 21:24 as well as Romans 11:25 advise that the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. After coming to this realization, it becomes quite clear that, when Jesus said that "this generation" would not pass in Matthew 24:34, He was referring to the future generation that would be gathered to witness His Second Coming after the church age is completed. Taking Luke 21:24 into consideration, this would occur after the fullness of the Gentiles. As Romans 11:26 states, after the fullness of the Gentiles (v. 25), "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
Adrenaline2:
First of all, we must see the distinction between national Israel (Jews circumcised in their flesh) and spiritual Israel or the elect (those circumcised in their hearts). Paul makes it clear who real Jews are--they are the spiritual seed of Abraham, those who are circumcised in their hearts and not in their flesh. The Lord, in the Book of Revelation chapters 2 and 3, speaks of Jews who are not Jews, but lie and are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).
National Israel and those apostate uncircumcised Jews were led away captive (Luke 21:24) but the true Jews were gathered together at Christ's Parousia ca. A.D. 70 (Matthew 24:31).
The fullness of the Gentiles is not the long period of nearly two thousand years up to our day as is commonly but erroneously taught. First of all, "the great distress in the land" involves the war with the Romans in the first century A.D. The wrath upon this people is a fulfillment of that promised to those hypocrite Jews of Jesus' day--whom Jesus pronounced guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. His wrath was coming against them in THAT generation. John the Baptist called these very same Jews a "brood of vipers"--a name Jesus also gave them. John asked THEM, "who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come" (Matt. 3:2; Luke 3:7)? The "time of the Gentiles" speaks of the Roman armies under Titus conquering the city and the people of Jerusalem and not of a church age.
Since Matthew 24:31 refers to the gathering out of the elect from all nations of the earth into His kingdom which is not of this world, THIS generation refers to that generation in which Jesus lived. Before this time of gathering all waited in Hades, both the righteous and the wicked, until Christ came and fully established His kingdom and brought resurrection life. This was the time Paul and his fellow saints longed for when he said, "WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor. 15) and this is what he spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 4 when he said "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them" (the dead in Christ in Hades).
Since Christ's parousia in judgment and in the resurrection from Hades of both the wicked and the righteous, all believers leave this realm and go immediately into Christ's presence and all the wicked go immediately to hell. There is no longer a waiting place. If Christ has not come, we cannot legitimately say that any believers goes to heaven or any unbelievers go to hell. The parousia and the resurrection and the judgment are all contemporaneous. Jesus told His first-century disciples (the Twelve) that THEY would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He came (Mt. 10). He came in A.D. 70. Every eye saw the results of His coming in the destruction of the temple and the city (wonders of the world) and the tribes of the land mourned because of Him!
All true Israel is saved--the spiritual seed of Abraham, all those circumcised in their hearts, the Church!
First of all, we must see the distinction between national Israel (Jews circumcised in their flesh) and spiritual Israel or the elect (those circumcised in their hearts). Paul makes it clear who real Jews are--they are the spiritual seed of Abraham, those who are circumcised in their hearts and not in their flesh. The Lord, in the Book of Revelation chapters 2 and 3, speaks of Jews who are not Jews, but lie and are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).
National Israel and those apostate uncircumcised Jews were led away captive (Luke 21:24) but the true Jews were gathered together at Christ's Parousia ca. A.D. 70 (Matthew 24:31).
The fullness of the Gentiles is not the long period of nearly two thousand years up to our day as is commonly but erroneously taught. First of all, "the great distress in the land" involves the war with the Romans in the first century A.D. The wrath upon this people is a fulfillment of that promised to those hypocrite Jews of Jesus' day--whom Jesus pronounced guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. His wrath was coming against them in THAT generation. John the Baptist called these very same Jews a "brood of vipers"--a name Jesus also gave them. John asked THEM, "who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come" (Matt. 3:2; Luke 3:7)? The "time of the Gentiles" speaks of the Roman armies under Titus conquering the city and the people of Jerusalem and not of a church age.
Since Matthew 24:31 refers to the gathering out of the elect from all nations of the earth into His kingdom which is not of this world, THIS generation refers to that generation in which Jesus lived. Before this time of gathering all waited in Hades, both the righteous and the wicked, until Christ came and fully established His kingdom and brought resurrection life. This was the time Paul and his fellow saints longed for when he said, "WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor. 15) and this is what he spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 4 when he said "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them" (the dead in Christ in Hades).
Since Christ's parousia in judgment and in the resurrection from Hades of both the wicked and the righteous, all believers leave this realm and go immediately into Christ's presence and all the wicked go immediately to hell. There is no longer a waiting place. If Christ has not come, we cannot legitimately say that any believers goes to heaven or any unbelievers go to hell. The parousia and the resurrection and the judgment are all contemporaneous. Jesus told His first-century disciples (the Twelve) that THEY would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He came (Mt. 10). He came in A.D. 70. Every eye saw the results of His coming in the destruction of the temple and the city (wonders of the world) and the tribes of the land mourned because of Him!
All true Israel is saved--the spiritual seed of Abraham, all those circumcised in their hearts, the Church!
Where? Don't just make a hit and run? Prove where I am twisting the Scriptures, adenaline2, or take back your accusation?
Preterist
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