Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
not at all ... I'm saying your qualifier of " I know they cannot be saved by faith, which is the only way to be saved, until they can understand it" ... is.
Saying this makes the person cooperating with being saved .... not what scriptures teach "and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
The difference between denominations when it comes to baptism is thatsome view it as something we are doing for God .. thus it's more of a dedication, while others like me understand it as God doing something to us, thus it saves.
I believe the scripture teaches that salvation is only obtained by faith. What does scripture say happens to he who does not believe?
I believe the scripture teaches that salvation is only obtained by faith. What does scripture say happens to he who does not believe?
I do not understand the failure on my part for you to see that I'm making a distinction between
that salvation is only by faith is a gift from God
meaning that salvation is by graceindependent from human capability to understand
Galatians 1:15
But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace,....
Ephesians 2:4-5
God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
vs. that nowhere does God say
they cannot be saved by faith ... until they can understand it"
The power of the grace of God is not found in the human contribution of capacity to understand.
Baptism saves by the washing and renewal from the power of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God.
Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21
The question is what does "believe" mean. In James, he discusses it in chapter 2. There is a distinction made between simply believing that God exists (even the demons believe in God), and trusting Jesus for our salvation. If we don't trust Christ for our salvation by virtue of his death on the cross....we will not be saved.
Interesting that you managed to dance around the entirety of James 2 without actually mentioning what it actually says. James chapter 2 is all about works and demonstrating our faith through works.
Ultimately, you do believe in works whether you realize it or not. In order to reach out to God and ask for forgiveness and salvation through Christ, actually required effort -- aka work.
Here's what doesn't happen: Some unsuspecting person is sitting around not even thinking about God (maybe they're thinking about renovating the kitchen or something) and then WHAMO: Out of nowhere, God just up and saves them. But for works to be entirely irrelevant, that's exactly how things would need to play out.
Quote:
Some denominations put an unbiblical emphasis on things other than faith, such as baptism. That's really our issue with it.
God knows all and I'm sure that accommodation will be made for folks like the fellow next to Christ on the cross that probably weren't ever baptized. The trouble is, we know practically nothing about the man, so every assumption any of us might make about him could be completely wrong. The man was probably a Jew, and very well might have been baptized at some point in his life as a matter of ritual purification (see also Mikveh). But if he was not baptized and died without ever getting the chance (he wasn't really in a position to be baptized at that moment and he was going to be dead very soon), then a merciful all-knowing God must have made the exception. Again, we know almost nothing about the man, so making any assumptions at all is entirely unwarranted.
The rest of us do have the chance to be baptized. We don't have any extenuating circumstances preventing us from it. It is absolutely ridiculous to claim that the Bible teaches that baptism is unnecessary or irrelevant. Where does the Bible ever teach that? And please save your, "This passage seems to imply ..." garbage. You have the following passages (and many others) that clearly establish baptism as a requirement:
Matthew 3:13-14
Quote:
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
John 3:5-7
Quote:
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
In order to unequivocally eliminate the necessity for baptism, you need a passage that specifically says, "Baptism is not necessary for salvation." Those two passages are pretty direct, so if at any point God changed his mind and stopped requiring baptism, I think he'd have been pretty clear and specific on the matter.
Why is it important? First and foremost, because Christ said so. But beyond that, humans seem to have an inborn need for symbols and rituals, and I think that God recognizes that fact. By itself with no real faith or intent, baptism is just an elaborate way of getting doused with water. But to the believing heart, it is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, as well as of the death and burial of our sinful self and then being born of God.
At the end of the day, why make such a fuss over it? Being baptized doesn't take much effort, so why not just do it?
I do not understand the failure on my part for you to see that I'm making a distinction between
that salvation is only by faith is a gift from God
meaning that salvation is by graceindependent from human capability to understand
Galatians 1:15
But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace,....
Ephesians 2:4-5
God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
vs. that nowhere does God say
they cannot be saved by faith ... until they can understand it"
The power of the grace of God is not found in the human contribution of capacity to understand.
Baptism saves by the washing and renewal from the power of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God.
Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21
We must be old enough to exercise that faith. No one is saved from birth or until they have that faith is all I am saying. As Paul (who became saved as an adult) say's, it is "through faith" that we are saved. Of course that Grace and faith come from God but no where in scripture do you find an infant being saved. Scripture does state that we must have faith to be saved. Faith is the same as believing and he who does not know of something cannot believe in it or have faith in it.
We must be old enough to exercise that faith. No one is saved from birth or until they have that faith is all I am saying. As Paul (who became saved as an adult) say's, it is "through faith" that we are saved. Of course that Grace and faith come from God but no where in scripture do you find an infant being saved. Scripture does state that we must have faith to be saved. Faith is the same as believing and he who does not know of something cannot believe in it or have faith in it.
I apologize if you've already explained your belief in a prior post, but I'm confused about one thing. I agree with you that we must have faith in order to be saved. I also agree with you that it is impossible to have faith in something a person knows nothing about. Finally, I agree that infants are incapable of exercising faith. What I want to know is what you believe happens to an infant who dies. Is he saved or condemned?
We must be old enough to exercise that faith. No one is saved from birth or until they have that faith is all I am saying. As Paul (who became saved as an adult) say's, it is "through faith" that we are saved. Of course that Grace and faith come from God but no where in scripture do you find an infant being saved. Scripture does state that we must have faith to be saved. Faith is the same as believing and he who does not know of something cannot believe in it or have faith in it.
As far as we are concerned,
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciplesof all nations,
"all nations" include infants
Psalm 22:10
From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
2 Timothy 3:15
and how frominfancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciplesof all nations,
"all nations" include infants
Psalm 22:10
From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
2 Timothy 3:15
and how frominfancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
speaks for themself.
I think you are reading more into them than they actually say. I just reject that infants are saved by pouring water on them or lost because you don't.
I apologize if you've already explained your belief in a prior post, but I'm confused about one thing. I agree with you that we must have faith in order to be saved. I also agree with you that it is impossible to have faith in something a person knows nothing about. Finally, I agree that infants are incapable of exercising faith. What I want to know is what you believe happens to an infant who dies. Is he saved or condemned?
I personally believe God will take care of them. The scripture does not state specifically every detail in this case. I have faith in God that He can and will do what is right in such a case. I don't have to know how or why.
My personal view is that someone not capable of understanding God and able to exercise faith are welcomed into Heaven. I don't care to speculate on the how and why.
I personally believe God will take care of them. The scripture does not state specifically every detail in this case. I have faith in God that He can and will do what is right in such a case. I don't have to know how or why.
My personal view is that someone not capable of understanding God and able to exercise faith are welcomed into Heaven. I don't care to speculate on the how and why.
I agree. Well said.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
