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And my point is that "faith" that is not a commitment to the love of Christ is no faith at all. Faith without works is dead and a "faith" that has no intention to work is stillborn.
There is a world of difference between a person who is "eager to do good works" but whose works don't produce fruit and one who just wants to "be saved" but has no interest in expressing the love of Jesus.
As for universalist views, it is a matter of how and when we come to the knowledge of God's love and the joy of fellowship in it. You would have the indifferent scammer there already and it is a violent wrenching of the message of Christ.
Faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation is simply trusting in His finished work on the Cross. It is not commitment to a life of obedience although the believer should certainly desire to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. By 'dead' faith James meant a non-productive faith. Not a non-existent faith.
The believer's attitude with regard to works have no bearing on his salvation since he has already been saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. It is already an accomplished fact.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive (Aorist Indicative; action occurring in the past) together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
How does Ephesians 2:5 say that you were saved? By grace. What does that mean? It means this...
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Ephesians 2:8-9 then expands upon that by bringing in faith and excluding works.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
By grace through faith excludes any meritorious works as the means of eternal salvation. Faith is non-meritorious. Jesus Gets the credit. Not you.
Works should be the result of having previously been saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Works are never the cause or the means of your eternal salvation.
The believer's attitude about his spiritual life after salvation is an issue with regard to eternal rewards. The believer's attitude about his spiritual life after salvation is NOT an issue with regard to eternal salvation.
Faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation is simply trusting in His finished work on the Cross. It is not commitment to a life of obedience although the believer should certainly desire to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. By 'dead' faith James meant a non-productive faith. Not a non-existent faith.
This to me is a mockery of the teachings of Jesus.
to you first, God, having raised up His child Jesus, did send him, blessing you, in the turning away of each one from your evil ways.'
The salvation of God is about turning us back to himself that we live how He intended. Its got nothing to do with escaping eternal hell.
Tell me how believing escaping from eternal hell produces the righteousness of God within us.
to rescue us from the hand of our enemies( all that is of the natural man)and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
Sadly, Nate, that is exactly what is being taught. The gospel message is being perverted to suit an increasingly narcissistic culture. Conversion is proclaimed as the road to self realization---a way to help us uncover our human potential for personal, social, and business success. It's not possible to do that if there are demands on a person to live as Jesus lived and sacrifice as He sacrificed.
Modern conversion brings Jesus into OUR lives rather than bringing US into His. We are told Jesus is here to help us do better what we are already doing. Jesus doesn't change our lives, He improves them. Christianity has been distorted to serve the interests of wealth and power. You can be "saved" and not need to be concerned about living a holy life before your Lord. After all, it was a one time experience. You can rest assured that while works may be important after the fact, they are not so important as to impede the life you live.
Listening to modern evangelical preachers, you would never get the idea that the coming of Jesus was intended to turn the world upside down.
You see, Jesus suffered crucifixion, He was a Suffering Servant, and His call for us to join Him basically says, "The life I have planned for Christians is a life much like I led. I wasn't poor so that you might be rich. I wasn't mocked so that you might be honored. I wasn't laughed at so that you could be lauded."
We are meant to fill up what is wanting in the suffering of Christ by doing His works. He left us here to continue the same things He did. But easy salvation, salvation without responsibility, free gifts, without expectation of service, is much more appealing to worldly man than sacrifice, cross-bearing, taking last place rather than first.
He didn't die on the Cross so we could sadly shake our heads and accept it as a mere theological necessity for the process of salvation. He meant to be on that Cross as an injunction to us to strip ourselves of earthly cares and worldly wisdom, all desire for human praise, greediness for any kind of comfort, and to let go of that which prefers the more attractive duty to the less attractive, which prods us to put more effort into relationships with the people we want to stand well with.
This legalistic distortion of the Gospel erects a protective screen of piety between the worshipper and a life-changing encounter with the Crucified Son of Man. Salvation without works turns the Gospel into a splatter of pious platitudes spoken by a Jewish carpenter in the distant past.
There has been no other time in the history of our nation, and maybe the world, when the name of Jesus has been so frequently mentioned while the content of His life and teaching are so thoroughly ignored.
With His very first sermon to the multitudes Jesus brought words that were shocking--
"Blessed are the poor in spirit: the kingdom of heaven is theirs."
God reversed all past ideas of human greatness and brings a new idea of human vocation. He said, in effect, you are Blessed if you love to be overlooked and regarded as nothing!!!! The BE-attitudes, the attitudes of being spell out the game plan for a different lifestyle of constant prayer, total unselfishness, buoyant, creative goodness and unbridled involvement with the hopeless and helpless of the world.
Jesus told a parable comparing His word to seed falling into a field. Some fell on stony ground and died--people who never received His word, some fell onto dry land and he likened that to people who for awhile HEARD THE WORD, with JOY no less, but fell away. But other seed (word) fell in good soil and brought forth FRUIT. That seed brought forth WORKS.
When Jesus called His disciples He never asked whether they were chaste or honest, sober, or respectable. Never once did He try to charm with promises of happiness. With uncompromising honesty, He said, "If anyone will come after Me, let him take up his cross daily. And whoever does not take up his cross daily (not just on Sundays) and come after Me cannot be my disciple."
Of the twelve men whom Jesus called to His inner circle, one died by his own hand, and all the others save John, were murdered. But now we hear people proclaiming, "I'VE MADE A DECISION FOR JESUS" and He is going to bless me with all sorts of goodness.
The warning I pass on to all who name the name of Christ is this:
If the cross is not in your life, then your life can't be very Christian.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this post seems to me to indicate a belief in the necessity for a kind of "it's all-or-nothing, sacrifice yourself 100% to doing, doing, doing, or you aren't holy and you are unworthy" thinking that I don't think is true.
You make it sound like it's a sin to enjoy simple BEING, and enjoy the miracle of LIVING one's life. Whether that be by simply spending time playing with your children, or taking a walk with your spouse or enjoying the process of creating something or learning something new for the pure pleasure of it and simply because you have the desire to do so. You make it sound sinful to use one's energy and resources to create a home for your own family. Your post makes all of that sound sinful, but I think that the opposite is true.
It seems to me that you are like Paul who didn't want people to marry and have families so they could be completely dedicated to DOING instead. If a person wants to do that because it fits the personality that God created them with, and fits their life circumstances, and it gives them joy, great. And if those are the only people that can be considered Jesus' disciples, then count me out right now, because that's not my life. If/when I no longer have a family, then I'd enjoy a life more centered on serving, too, I think. But you better believe even then that I'll still take time to be with people I love and for walks and play and creating and learning and just enjoying without DOING. And I refuse to let religion make me feel guilty about that anymore.
Which is just as wrong as treating them simplistically, saying that a simple belief that Jesus' sacrifice saved us is all that is necessary and that repent only means "change of mind" when it is clear that it includes "feel remorse" "a turning away" (get out your Arndt and Gingrich)for the sake of your simplistic interpretation. That is dishonest. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not just to save us from punishment, it was to save us from a life of sin.
Two different Greek words have been translated as 'repent'. One is Metanoia, and the other is Metamelomai.
Metanoia [Noun] means to have a change of mind. While sorrow may accompany a change of mind, there is no requirement to feel sorry for your sins as a condition for eternal salvation. At gospel hearing the Holy Spirit convicts of sin as per John 16:8-9. And the knowledge that one is a sinner and in need of salvation leads to repentance - a change of mind, but it is not the repentance itself.
Metamelonai expresses the idea both of changing the mind and of feeling remorse.
But Metamelonai is never used with regard to salvation. Take Acts 3:19 for example.
Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent (metanoeó;[Verb] have a change of mind) and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
Metamelomai is used in Matthew 27:3 with regard to Judas Iscariot's remorse for betraying Jesus, but it did not save him. Judas is in the 'torments' side of Hades awaiting his transferrence to the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium.
Matt. 27:3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse (metamelomai; metameletheis [Verb] having regretted) and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders.
Judas Iscariot repented (metamelomai) but he was not saved as a result of his sorrow. He died without receiving Jesus Christ as Savior.
While a believer should have a desire to turn away from sin, that too belongs to the spiritual life after salvation, and is not a requirement for salvation.
A person is saved by trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. The mechanics of the gospel was given by Paul.
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4] and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
The gospel in a nutshell is this...
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Therefore, understanding that God the Father sent Jesus Christ into the world to go to the Cross and die for the sins of the world (to die for your sins), simply put your trust in Jesus for eternal life, and you are eternally saved as of that very moment. That is all it takes to receive the gift of eternal life. And then go and pick up your cross and follow Jesus. Not to earn the salvation which already belongs to the believer by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, but out of obedience to Jesus.
You ignore the dichotomy of God--and His salvation
[quote=Mike555;30476106]It is certainly true that God wants the believer to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. But one cannot do so until one has first been saved. And salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. The works belong to the believers spiritual life, not to salvation itself.
You yourself said the following in post # 136. '' The "free gift" view and the "lordship view" cannot both be right. They are mutually exclusive. The Bible teaches one or the other or neither, but it cannot teach both without contradicting itself.''
I then showed you from Scripture that salvation is indeed a free gift. AND YOU SIMPLY IGNORED IT!!!
In that same post you contradicted yourself by first saying, ''Sinners are not saved by good works,'' and then turning around and saying, ''DOING God's word brings salvation.''
<snip>
quote]
You see salvation as simply a gift, I see it as a gift AND a responsibility both tied together--not separate. Not one and then the other. By not being able to see the possibility of an unseparated dichotomy it would put your theology of Jesus to being--First Jesus had to be born as a Man, and then He became a God.
No He was both God and Man, one and the same at the same instance.
So it is with salvation. Accepting Christ and His cross are not separate entities--both are "free" gifts, if you will, but you cannot have one without the other, just as you cannot have Jesus as either God or Man and call Him Lord.
The call God gave me is to speak to those who claim His name. To point them to the Cross as well as the Faith. The masses in the churches this morning are happy with worshipping the baby Jesus at Christmas, and with singing songs of adoration, and with hearing how they have come out from the world by their acceptance of Christ.
But very few want to hear about the Cross. Better to leave all that to Jesus and accept His suffering as our free gift rather than pick up our own cross to follow Him. Sooner or later, every true Christian finds that he is on the path to Golgotha, something the religious masses reject from a personal standpoint.
Do you?
You've made a profession of faith. Now learn what it means. Pick up your cross and follow him--learn to love those people who mostly turn your stomach. Learn to seek righteousness in yourself while practicing mercy and kindness toward everyone else and expecting nothing from them. Do it long enough, and you will begin to feel the nails driven into your palms.
Only God could tell us we could find peace in the midst of suffering. Paul, who I think is mostly misread and misunderstood, writes of one thing that should be the heartbeat of every Christian---"I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord for whose sake I have lost all things (hmmm--a work tied in with knowledge), I consider them rubbish (things) that I may gain Christ." (Phil 3:8)
Mike, go and learn what that means.
For Nate, while I am not a universalist, and I suspect you may be, you are not far from the kingdom of heaven.
I'm an old man. My physical frailties limit me more each day, and I have never lived up to the true potential that I had when Christ opened my eyes more than fifty years ago. The time is coming where the torch must be passed to another to speak out to Christians about accepting the Cross along with the Christ---a single duality that brings forth life. Someone else must take up the cry of the early church, "Jesus is Lord!!!" He is a Savior and He is a Lord. No one can teach those as separate from each other and be part of Him.
If any of this strikes a chord with anyone, it is only because the messages about Jesus which I have delivered over the course of my life are mostly aimed at me. Sometimes other people step into the path and think it is aimed at them. But they are mostly reminding myself of why I was called to be His servant. For too many of us, the busy world gets in front of the eyes of faith--and we forget.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this post seems to me to indicate a belief in the necessity for a kind of "it's all-or-nothing, sacrifice yourself 100% to doing, doing, doing, or you aren't holy and you are unworthy" thinking that I don't think is true..
Yes, it is necessary.
Quote:
You make it sound like it's a sin to enjoy simple BEING, and enjoy the miracle of LIVING one's life. Whether that be by simply spending time playing with your children, or taking a walk with your spouse or enjoying the process of creating something or learning something new for the pure pleasure of it and simply because you have the desire to do so. You make it sound sinful to use one's energy and resources to create a home for your own family. Your post makes all of that sound sinful, but I think that the opposite is true.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake, shall find it.
Matthew 10 37-39
Quote:
It seems to me that you are like Paul who didn't want people to marry and have families so they could be completely dedicated to DOING instead. If a person wants to do that because it fits the personality that God created them with, and fits their life circumstances, and it gives them joy, great. And if those are the only people that can be considered Jesus' disciples, then count me out right
now, because that's not my life. If/when I no longer have a family, then I'd enjoy a life more centered on serving, too, I think. But you better believe even then that I'll still take time to be with people I love and for walks and play and creating and learning and just enjoying without DOING. And I refuse to
let religion make me feel guilty about that anymore.
You at least have a glimpse of the sacrifice that bearing a cross brings to a Christian. You are closer to understanding the truth of God than many who claim they do understand the truth. The difference is, many so called Christians aren't as honest with themselves. You have been, and I suspect the Spirit of God will continue to deal with you.
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He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake, shall find it.
Matthew 10 37-39
You at least have a glimpse of the sacrifice that bearing a cross brings to a Christian. You are closer to understanding the truth of God than many who claim they do understand the truth.
I'm sorry Warden, but you make Christianity sound like a joyless existence. Jesus also said, "Come to me you who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." If you are attempting to hoist a cross that leaves you feeling burdened and weary, then I don't believe it is the cross Jesus was speaking of. God loves us and I believe that love will inspire us to do the works of love that HE has prepared for us to do, including love for ourselves.
I do not claim to be a Christian, and if your version is what Jesus truly intended for us to follow, then like I said ... count me out.
It is certainly true that God wants the believer to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. But one cannot do so until one has first been saved. And salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. The works belong to the believers spiritual life, not to salvation itself.
You yourself said the following in post # 136. '' The "free gift" view and the "lordship view" cannot both be right. They are mutually exclusive. The Bible teaches one or the other or neither, but it cannot teach both without contradicting itself.''
I then showed you from Scripture that salvation is indeed a free gift. AND YOU SIMPLY IGNORED IT!!!
In that same post you contradicted yourself by first saying, ''Sinners are not saved by good works,'' and then turning around and saying, ''DOING God's word brings salvation.''
<snip>
quote]
You see salvation as simply a gift, I see it as a gift AND a responsibility both tied together--not separate. Not one and then the other. By not being able to see the possibility of an unseparated dichotomy it would put your theology of Jesus to being--First Jesus had to be born as a Man, and then He became a God.
Then you were less than truthful when you said that salvation is either a free gift, or that salvation involves commitment and that they are mutually exclusive.
Quote:
No He was both God and Man, one and the same at the same instance.
I never said that He wasn't. As God, Jesus has eternally existed. He is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.
Quote:
So it is with salvation. Accepting Christ and His cross are not separate entities--both are "free" gifts, if you will, but you cannot have one without the other, just as you cannot have Jesus as either God or Man and call Him Lord.
As I have said over and over, salvation is a free gift which is received by simply believing in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. You do not pick up your cross, to be saved, nor can you do such a thing. One must first be saved by grace through faith, and then you can pick up your cross and follow Jesus. But not until you have first been saved through faith.
Quote:
You've made a profession of faith. Now learn what it means. Pick up your cross and follow him--learn to love those people who mostly turn your stomach. Learn to seek righteousness in yourself while practicing mercy and kindness toward everyone else and expecting nothing from them. Do it long enough, and you will begin to feel the nails driven into your palms.
Concern yourself with carrying your own cross and do not presume that I have not done so. But for your own sake you need to understand that you cannot earn your salvation with your works. God only offers eternal life as a free gift which is received by grace, through faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Salvation is not something which God owes you because you earn it through your efforts.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3] For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4]Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.5]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Quote:
Only God could tell us we could find peace in the midst of suffering. Paul, who I think is mostly misread and misunderstood, writes of one thing that should be the heartbeat of every Christian---"I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord for whose sake I have lost all things (hmmm--a work tied in with knowledge), I consider them rubbish (things) that I may gain Christ." (Phil 3:8)
You said that Paul misrepresented the teachings of Jesus and the other apostles. Now, you are implying that he is simply misunderstood. You are not consistent in what you say.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-14-2013 at 10:46 AM..
You are correct, Pleroo. Warden is on the other extreme from the easy believism crowd. I am not a fan of puns . . . but given my screen name . . . we are to seek a happy medium!
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."
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You ignore the dichotomy of God--and His salvation
