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Biblical or not . . . reward punishment is the lowest level response any organism can make. It is how pets and other species are trained. Emulation is the next level up of response to external role models. Internalization (inner self-motivation) is the highest level. It doesn't seem remotely spiritually productive to focus on or emphasize such low level motivations as reward punishment, IMO.
If a person is motivated by a love for God and by gratitude for one's blessings, obedience is not a "low level response."
When I was a child, and even a teenager, I was extremely close to my parents. I loved them intensely and wanted nothing more than to please them. My efforts to please them inevitably resulted, over time, in "rewards" of one sort or another. I wasn't motivated by the rewards, but they came nonetheless. I was given opportunities that I'd have never been given had I been inclined to disobey their rules every chance I got, or to take advantage of the the freedoms they gave me. I see it in almost exactly the same way with respect to my relationship to my Father in Heaven. I do things that I know will please Him, and I do them because I love Him and want to please Him. I don't do anything with the idea of a reward in mind, but I know that I will be rewarded nevertheless.
MysticPhD said in post # 239 : “ Emulation is the next level up of response to external role models. Internalization (inner self-motivation) is the highest level. It doesn't seem remotely spiritually productive to focus on or emphasize such low level motivations as reward punishment, IMO. “
I strongly agree with you on these wonderful points. However, they are themselves, the very base principles involved in early Judao-Christianity.
The fact that we were speaking of a basic principle such as reward/punishment does not mean these other "higher" principles are not present and proportionally involved in authentic Christianity any more than if were speaking about a cars’ tire means there are no other parts present on the automobile. We were simply speaking of a single part of the car at that time. WE are still talking about Christian principles when discussing Emulation and Internalization. You may simply have been unaware of it. Or you might consider that your personal and simplistic assumptions regarding what christianity was, is not the same as that of authentic the early Christians.
Clear
τωσεφυνεω
Last edited by Clear lens; 10-30-2013 at 12:57 PM..
If a person is motivated by a love for God and by gratitude for one's blessings, obedience is not a "low level response."
But it is not the self-directed mature response of a responsible adult. We are NOT pets in obedience trials required to perform all the appropriate tricks to be rewarded by God. We are children maturing into spiritual adults who are supposed to be acquiring the same internal motivations exhibited by Christ.
Or you might consider that your personal and simplistic assumptions regarding what christianity was, is not the same as that of authentic the early Christians.
Clear
τωσεφυνεω
Simplistic???You may have read my Synthesis . . . but you clearly did not comprehend it.
But it is not the self-directed mature response of a responsible adult. We are NOT pets in obedience trials required to perform all the appropriate tricks to be rewarded by God. We are children maturing into spiritual adults who are supposed to be acquiring the same internal motivations exhibited by Christ.
But it is not the self-directed mature response of a responsible adult. We are NOT pets in obedience trials required to perform all the appropriate tricks to be rewarded by God. We are children maturing into spiritual adults who are supposed to be acquiring the same internal motivations exhibited by Christ.
Whatever. I am God's child and I seek to please Him because I love him. That's never going to change, even if I get to be 100. If you really think that reasoning makes me no different than a pet in an obedience trial, so be it.
Whatever. I am God's child and I seek to please Him because I love him. That's never going to change, even if I get to be 100. If you really think that reasoning makes me no different than a pet in an obedience trial, so be it.
Katzpur, everything we do because of our love for God is foolishness to those who are perishing without Him. Never take their insults personal because they cannot understand.
Whatever. I am God's child and I seek to please Him because I love him. That's never going to change, even if I get to be 100. If you really think that reasoning makes me no different than a pet in an obedience trial, so be it.
Ah, Katz my dear friend. I do not think you are a pet in an obedience trial . . . and we both are God's children and love Him. I am just trying to de-emphasize the low level motivations (Reward/Punish) that were the primary things that our ancient ancestors were responsive to during the schoolmaster stage. Regrettably, the churches have negligently and obstructively retained them to the detriment of our collective spiritual maturity.
With the advent of Christ we were supposed to begin the emulation stage motivated entirely by "love of God and each other" . . . NOT the simplistic obedience and superstitious fear of our ignorant ancestors. Following Christ's instructions to His disciples was eventually supposed to produce the inner motivations characteristic of a true spiritual adult. The churches and their obedience and fear mantras have been major stumbling blocks to that spiritual evolution.
I don't believe Matthew 20:9-10 is addressing that issue at all. I have no problem whatsoever with God's justice, but I do believe that when He gives us commandments and we are obedient to them, He will reward us. That is definitely not unbiblical.
It seems you misunderstood me. I'm saying we will be rewarded but with the fullness of Christ no matter if we do all that St Paul or anyone else did or not. Everyone's ability is not the same but God will reward [the fullness of Himself] according to your faithfulness and not of another's capacity to understand and do the will of God nor how long they have done it. This what the parable shows.
There are some who make it sound that the more you do the more you will be rewarded. Well of coarse every good thing carries with it's own reward [which keeps us going] but I believe the Word of God only says to do as you have been given to do and you will receive the fullness of reward in the end. It is not a matter of quantity but of faithfulness if only in little things because that perhaps is all He has given for the time being and all that He expects.
Ah, Katz my dear friend. I do not think you are a pet in an obedience trial . . . and we both are God's children and love Him. I am just trying to de-emphasize the low level motivations (Reward/Punish) that were the primary things that our ancient ancestors were responsive to during the schoolmaster stage. Regrettably, the churches have negligently and obstructively retained them to the detriment of our collective spiritual maturity.
With the advent of Christ we were supposed to begin the emulation stage motivated entirely by "love of God and each other" . . . NOT the simplistic obedience and superstitious fear of our ignorant ancestors. Following Christ's instructions to His disciples was eventually supposed to produce the inner motivations characteristic of a true spiritual adult. The churches and their obedience and fear mantras have been major stumbling blocks to that spiritual evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123
It seems you misunderstood me. I'm saying we will be rewarded but with the fullness of Christ no matter if we do all that St Paul or anyone else did or not. Everyone's ability is not the same but God will reward [the fullness of Himself] according to your faithfulness and not of another's capacity to understand and do the will of God nor how long they have done it. This what the parable shows.
There are some who make it sound that the more you do the more you will be rewarded. Well of coarse every good thing carries with it's own reward [which keeps us going] but I believe the Word of God only says to do as you have been given to do and you will receive the fullness of reward in the end. It is not a matter of quantity but of faithfulness if only in little things because that perhaps is all He has given for the time being and all that He expects.
Apparently I misread both of you then. I apologize.
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