Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
All modern geology refutes a global flood. Similar to the god of the gaps, the flood has been retreating to one of a localised flood to somehow make the tale seem plausible. W/o a flood, Noah and his kids fall through the floorboards of their unseaworthy vessel and with that the lineage leading up to Jesus.
The problem here, like the A&E myth because of known genetic constraints of single pairs which plays out not only in the creation story but also post flood critters, not to mention the food and poop constraints, two of the four pillars of christianity are toppled over.
It may not seem important but the fact is that it actually does matter. This means that the lineage of Jesus traces back through two known myths leaving only exodus and Jesus himself as the remaining pillars.
A creator god would not make these mistakes nor would he claim to be incarnate if he truly was god. We would not have evolved to the level of knowledge to rationally dismiss these claims with modern science and by that I do not mean rocket science, merely a HS level of science.
You are left with well it must have happened b/c it says so in the bible.
Exodus as claimed never happened and simple arithmetic disproves the claims. To water 2-6M humans in the desert via ported water or a miracle well, ported it would be a 8.5km convoy of 20kl trucks to supply the 2l (~4 pints) we need on a daily basis in a temperate climate. The hotter it is the more water you need as your body sweats to regulate your core temperature. Miriam's well or the rock of Horeb does not work either as in a 12 hour period, it would have to deliver a gusher that no one could hold a receptacle to and there would need to be a conveyor moving at a speed no one could stand up on. The entire daylight period would be spent simply gathering water. You cannot drink 4 pints straight and last 24 hours, the body does not work like that. Not even magic works here. I have lived much of my life in sub tropical climates and I drink more than 2l a day where I currently reside in a very temperate climate 5000' above sea level; where the highest temp is around 30ºC (86ºF) in the shade on a really hot day. There are no records in Egyptology of a lost Pharaoh, 6M slaves (imagine the army required to keep them under control) There are no artefacts burial sites of this ever happening (all those that fled never made it to the promised land, that is 2-6M bodies buried over 40 years), the ark of the covenant is now conveniently back in heaven (Revelation 11:19)
What is so important about exodus? Well that is where all the laws and trials and wars came from moving to the promised land which is the basis for christianity in the new heaven and earth or new Jerusalem. It also is important as there is the expectation of reintroduced temple sacrifices and the red heifer has been bred in anticipation. Problem is that animal rights activists in Israel have put paid to that and animal sacrifice is banned.
Jesus, god incarnate would have known all of this were he really a real person (or as accepted) an exceptional demi god. Yet he allegedly made statements relating to all of these earlier supposed happenings.
When they were inventing this new religion, if they had not tacked it onto the Hebrew one, they may have gotten away with it.
By the time of the council of Nicea circa 350CE, the stories were highly embellished and beyond that the evidence gets very fuzzy quickly. Most churches hold to the Nicean creed aka the apostles creed in various forms so the legitimacy does not go much beyond that except for a lot of conjecture. Protestant denoms have dropped anything relating to dead saints and the pope post the reformation in the 1600s.
In the flood story, we also have the rainbow as being some covenant between god and the earth's populace that he would never flood the earth again. We of course should know how rainbows are in fact formed and this has always been so since the water cycle(1) and sun shining from behind at the right angle. The rainbow colours are also seen in oil on water when it floats which begs the question did god imprint the rainbow into yet to be discovered fossil fuels? Of course it is due to light refraction.
With all the OT stuff properly explained and/or refuted, you are left with a stand-alone Jesus that is no more compelling than other demi gods of the time. It kinda goes against the parable of building a house on rock or sand - no?
And the irony with building on sand, these days we have invented piling where pillars are hammered into the sand or are cast and is used in most coastal cities and would be more resistant to earthquakes than those built on rock. I do understand the rock here symbolises christ but the parable actually is no longer relevant.
If the religion is built on three false premises, then its foundation is NOT very solid.
(1) The water cycle has been in existence since there were oceans and the effects of the sun upon it. The Genesis claim of no rain till the flood is impossible and goes against all physical laws and meteorology.
As a former believer, these were not major stumbling blocks and somehow did find a way to live with the cognitive dissonance for a number of years. I now call it sweeping it under the rug of inconvenience.
The question I have to ask, was I alone in avoiding these questions or put another way, have you never contemplated what I have just posted?
Yes, this is important. The theological implications can't be overlooked. Just as a flood in the middle east with a family and their domestic animals on it (aside from the fact that some of them had to be ritually kosher for a Jewish temple -type sacrifice) but which wasn't global, even if otherwise as per Noah would totally kick the slats out of why God did it, Adam and Eve not being true (aka 'metaphorically true'), completely puts the skids under why we have original sin, never mind why it's our fault.
All this completely nullifies and negates the mission of Christ, since he not only swore that these events were true enough to have afterlife -entry - tickets based on them, but his entire mission was to put right the damage done by that damn' apple that God so temptingly dangled in front of him and dared him to eat it. Even to the point of telling a lie (or what looked uncomfortably like it) and then letting the lizard gain some credit by showing it up - 'eat the apple and you won't die, or no more than you would have done anyway'.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-26-2014 at 05:55 AM..
Reason: I can't think why 'buggers' in not prohibited.
The archaeology does, or at least the geological background. If you are going to say that has nothing to do with the Noah story, I agree. So why are you raising the Black sea flood archaeology at all?
Sorry. The mesopotamian legend is the basic creation story of the middle - east. The Biblical one was evidently derived from that. If you are going to say the original Sumerian tale was based on some oral tale from earlier survivors and adapted to reflect the local geography (which is another of your ad hoc explainings away of the unhelpful evidence based on nothing whatever) then we have absolutely no idea what the original flood was or who was in it, and that it was anything like the Noah story or involving sheep sacrificing Hebrews is stretching coincidence too far.
But you will say that Genesis contains the original story. That is what the debate is about (as distinct from what it should be about - whether the Ark has been found) whether it is at all credible in the Biblical form. Because if it isn't - and, despite your best efforts, you have failed to make any case other than dismiss all the evidence, because it conflicts with how the world had to be at the time in order to make it work - then the best explanation is that the Bible -writers lifted the old Babylonian myth and adapted it to make God the top bod and the flood all part of His Plan.
Which is pretty much nullified by a non - total Black sea flood as the one you were waving about as gospel -true archeology so long as it supported you (or so you hoped) and rejected out of hand ("Who said there was even a "Black Sea" in the days of Noah?" there wasn't -until the area got flooded) when it doesn't. I'm afraid, Eusebius old chum, you Noah nothing and apparently don't want to Noah.
Two or three hundred years from now, I trust that the beliefs of the Muslims, Mormons and others will be in the same receptacle as the Christian.
People were living in the valley in Noah's day where the Black Sea is now. Are you now going to tell me they built their homes and businesses under water? How could there have been a Black Sea in Noah's day if people were living in that valley? Ballard proves a global flood by all the deep sediment in WHAT IS NOW the Black Sea and the homes and buildings buried under the sediment left by the global flood.
We have given you way more information to back up our view of the historic global-flood in Noah's day than you have against it. That doesn't mean we are more correct than you but you surely can't say we have brought nothing to the table or that you won the day.
The "Great Flood" certainly must have been a field day for ol'Satan !
Wow, what a bumper crop of sinners he got that year!
And, y'know that must have been a pretty tough year, when both God and Satan were trying to getcha and drag you to hell! I never knew they played so well as a tag team.
God is going to save all mankind:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all humans to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1Ti 2:3-6).
Those people who died in the flood were eventually going to die anyway. God just hastened the process. None of those people are going to complain when God gives them all immortality and incorruption and fills their hearts with true, genuine love.
Philippians 2:8-11 shows all those people who died in the flood, before the flood and after the flood, including you, bowing in adoration to Jesus and God.
Now then, if they aren't mad at God in that day, why are you now?
I'm willing to bet that if God did nothing you'd be first in line to say: "If there is a God why isn't He doing anything to stop all the violence?"
People were living in the valley in Noah's day where the Black Sea is now. Are you now going to tell me they built their homes and businesses under water? How could there have been a Black Sea in Noah's day if people were living in that valley? Ballard proves a global flood by all the deep sediment in WHAT IS NOW the Black Sea and the homes and buildings buried under the sediment left by the global flood.
Yes. So? It was not global and therefore not as described in Genesis. Even if it was the oral tradition that led to the Noah story.
Quote:
We have given you way more information to back up our view of the historic global-flood in Noah's day than you have against it. That doesn't mean we are more correct than you but you surely can't say we have brought nothing to the table or that you won the day.
I can't remember anything you have brought to the table but denial of geological and palaeontological assurances that the earth is millions of years old and that a global flood with associated mountains suddenly shooting up (let alone all the global species being wiped out higgledy -piggledy in in one huge flood -layer (which is of course not the case) and then replaced by all the species again - only for all the 'prehistoric' ones to suddenly go extinct) did not happen.
I can't bring to mind anything but speculative, far -fetched and rather wonky denial of what archeology tells us about the technology of before, say 3,000 B.c. Though I have to say it is an improvement on our last debate where you tried to deny that a 400 foot -long ship without metal - framing was perfectly seaworthy. Now at least you argue that Noah knew that he needed it, though how he did unless building 400 foot long wooden boats in his day was as common as oil -tankers in Gdansk, I can't imagine.
And to that you add the Black sea flood which is utterly unhelpful to the Bible and in fact discredits it, even if it explains where persistent flood legends came from. What, exactly, have you brought to table? What, other than faith in the literal factuality of genesis?
Yes. So? It was not global and therefore not as described in Genesis. Even if it was the oral tradition that led to the Noah story.
I can't remember anything you have brought to the table but denial of geological and palaeontological assurances that the earth is millions of years old and that a global flood with associated mountains suddenly shooting up (let alone all the global species being wiped out higgledy -piggledy in in one huge flood -layer (which is of course not the case) and then replaced by all the species again - only for all the 'prehistoric' ones to suddenly go extinct) did not happen.
I can't bring to mind anything but speculative, far -fetched and rather wonky denial of what archeology tells us about the technology of before, say 3,000 B.c. Though I have to say it is an improvement on our last debate where you tried to deny that a 400 foot -long ship without metal - framing was perfectly seaworthy. Now at least you argue that Noah knew that he needed it, though how he did unless building 400 foot long wooden boats in his day was as common as oil -tankers in Gdansk, I can't imagine.
And to that you add the Black sea flood which is utterly unhelpful to the Bible and in fact discredits it, even if it explains where persistent flood legends came from. What, exactly, have you brought to table? What, other than faith in the literal factuality of genesis?
I can't remember anything you have brought to the table but denial of geological and palaeontological assurances that the earth is millions of years old
Really? Did I ever once state the earth is not millions of years old? As a matter of fact,
I have been vocal in stating the earth could be millions of years old due to the earth being created in Genesis 1:1 and then the earth BECOMING chaos and vacant. And then in Genesis 1:2 how God made the earth, which was already in existence, habitable again in 1:2. Do you remember me stating such?
The "Great Flood" certainly must have been a field day for ol'Satan !
Wow, what a bumper crop of sinners he got that year!
And, y'know that must have been a pretty tough year, when both God and Satan were trying to getcha and drag you to hell! I never knew they played so well as a tag team.
Maybe you didn't know that those people's sins were not counted against them. And since the definition of hell is not what you are describing, the point is moot.
Really? Did I ever once state the earth is not millions of years old? As a matter of fact,
I have been vocal in stating the earth could be millions of years old due to the earth being created in Genesis 1:1 and then the earth BECOMING chaos and vacant. And then in Genesis 1:2 how God made the earth, which was already in existence, habitable again in 1:2. Do you remember me stating such?
No. You must pardon me. I must be confusing you with someone who said that the creation happened 6,000 B.c or something similar.
Since this thread was about the Flood rather than creation, I was looking at that and in fact (though you may accuse me of shifting the goalposts) I had in mind a denial that the process of geological formations and evolution happened over millions of years and not a year or so. In fact, I believe that is pretty much what I said. "....denial of geological and palaeontological assurances that the earth is millions of years old "
However, I now recall someone arguing that evolution was wrong and pointed to a site saying that it was right but, with 'interpretation', Genesis agreed with it.
In that respect you are not 'bringing anything to the table' but looking at what we unbelievers have brought, and letting one or two items pass.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I never knew they played so well as a tag team.