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Christianity seems to be pretty corrupt though which was predicted, just as Judaism is based around taking the signs as literal things to be physically observed, the various Christian churches do the same
God is not the Christian God or the Jewish God it seems to me, the same as he not just the God of the fundamentalist or the universalist or Baptist
“The Christ” which spoke to the prophets is the same that spoke through the apostles to gather all together (Israel) under one head
the writings we have are spiritual things where we are to learn to listen to the spirit and not judge each other
The writings are timeless and speak to us now
What I see is prophetic things, and we should be looking at what the names mean and not worshipping or focussing on the physical things which were the “types”
Light blue is mine
Jesus Ministers to Great Crowds
Mat 4:23 And Jesus (his disciples) went around all Galilee (the sea) teaching in their synagogues (churches, temples) and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every sickness among the people. (Spiritual blind, deaf, lame, possessed)
Mat 4:24 And the report of Him went out into all Syria. And they brought to Him all the ones being badly ill, suffering various diseases and torments, also those being demon-possessed, and those being moonstruck, and paralytics; and He healed them.
Mat 4:25 And many crowds followed Him from Galilee (the sea)and Decapolis (10 cities), and Jerusalem, and Judea, and beyond the Jordan.
The Sermon on the Mount
Mat 5:1 But seeing the crowds, He went up into the mountain, and seating Himself, His disciples came near to Him.
The Beatitudes
Mat 5:2 And opening His mouth, He taught them, saying:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit! For theirs is the kingdom of the Heavens.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are the ones mourning! For they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth. Psa. 37:11
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness! For they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful! For they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart! For they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers! For they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake! For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are you when they shall reproach you, and persecute you, and shall say every evil word against you, lying, on account of Me.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and leap for joy, for your reward is great in Heaven; for in this way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
1Co 12:13 For also we all were baptized by one Spirit into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, even all were given to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For also the body is not one member, but many.
The physical sabbath day Saturday, and the physical 8th day Sunday are symbols which point to the creation account and the millennial 7th day ..... and the recreation which is the never ending 8th day
I'm not going to slog through all the quotes, but I do like the part I bolded. Food for metaphorical thought.
That's Paul. Or is it? Nowadays it's disputed that it was Paul who wrote Hebrews. And, if he didn't, then Hebrews was written by an unknown author. So, are you saying that it was Paul or an unknown author who was responsible for having abrogated the Creation Sabbath? Good grief, some of you guys are an easy sell.
We honestly don't know. The writer didn't identify himself/herself. But it's inspired nonetheless.
Having said that, Jesus said to come to HIM for rest. Matthew 11:28.
Look at the sermon on the mount. Did you realize that Jesus goes down the list of the 10 Commandments and the ONLY one that he didn't address was......the Sabbath?
Why do you suppose that was? It's because HE is our Sabbath rest. We rest in HIM.
No, Romulus, you don't obsess....much. We'll know when you finally get past SDA programming. Best wishes.
If only you knew me personally and as to how I feel about religious 'doctrines' in general - SDA or otherwise - you wouldn't make such a comment. But, you don't know me, so that's okay. But I am telling you here and now what MY beliefs are and not those of ANY religious organization. Moreover, what you are doing is rather typical of the discrediting of someone else when their beliefs differ from one's own. It won't work on me, so don't bother yourself. Sorry Nate, I realize we might agree on some things and differ on others but hope that we're still friends anyway.
Probably most of us have a grounding in some kind of a belief - religious or otherwise - but at the end of the day we need to decide for ourselves what that belief is actually grounded upon. My belief regarding this topic is that there is no justification within the Bible (that's the book we're using as our source on this Christian forum, correct?) for the 7th-day Sabbath (which has nothing, nada, zilch, ZERO to do with SDAs!) to have been revoked. And, indeed, it DOES NOT state such a thing. There, I've said it again. And, all one has to do to check whether I'm right or wrong is to read their Bible! That's all I've done in order to arrive at where I'm at. And yes, I'm also very familiar with those other sources that are used to support the Christian Sunday sabbath. The very same sort of personal research I've done is also true with the 'gay' topic.
If I was to go into the initial reason for the Sabbath having been commanded of 'God-followers' I would continue to sound like a worn out vinyl record. SO, all I know and all I have EVER stated is that NOWHERE in scripture is the 7th-day Sabbath command abolished. That is IT, wholely and solely. I DON'T CARE what other sources are presented that offer supposed reasons as to why Christians took on Sunday as their sabbath. I don't even really care that they DID do this ...just as long as they don't pretend that this 'abrogation of the 7th-day Sabbath' is Bible-sanctioned while still claiming to be 'God-worshipers'.
An interesting thing occurred when the crew of the ship, Bounty, arrived at the unchartered Pitcairn Island. This was after the crew had mutineered and sent Captain Bligh and his supporters adrift in a long boat. Among the many items the crew salvaged from the ship before it was scuttled was a Bible or, perhaps, several Bibles. As they colonized Pitcairn Island with some of the Tahitian women they met along their previous travels they formed a Christian group later becoming an established church. From their reading of scripture ALONE - with NO outside influences whatsoever - they became 7th-day Sabbath keepers.
If only you knew me personally and as to how I feel about religious 'doctrines' in general - SDA or otherwise - you wouldn't make such a comment. But, you don't know me, so that's okay. But I am telling you here and now what MY beliefs are and not those of ANY religious organization. Moreover, what you are doing is rather typical of the discrediting of someone else when their beliefs differ from one's own. It won't work on me, so don't bother yourself. Sorry Nate, I realize we might agree on some things and differ on others but hope that we're still friends anyway.
Probably most of us have a grounding in some kind of a belief - religious or otherwise - but at the end of the day we need to decide for ourselves what that belief is actually grounded upon. My belief regarding this topic is that there is no justification within the Bible (that's the book we're using as our source on this Christian forum, correct?) for the 7th-day Sabbath (which has nothing, nada, zilch, ZERO to do with SDAs!) to have been revoked. And, indeed, it DOES NOT state such a thing. There, I've said it again. And, all one has to do to check whether I'm right or wrong is to read their Bible! That's all I've done in order to arrive at where I'm at. And yes, I'm also very familiar with those other sources that are used to support the Christian Sunday sabbath. The very same sort of personal research I've done is also true with the 'gay' topic.
If I was to go into the initial reason for the Sabbath having been commanded of 'God-followers' I would continue to sound like a worn out vinyl record. SO, all I know and all I have EVER stated is that NOWHERE in scripture is the 7th-day Sabbath command abolished. That is IT, wholely and solely. I DON'T CARE what other sources are presented that offer supposed reasons as to why Christians took on Sunday as their sabbath. I don't even really care that they DID do this ...just as long as they don't pretend that this 'abrogation of the 7th-day Sabbath' is Bible-sanctioned while still claiming to be 'God-worshipers'.
An interesting thing occurred when the crew of the ship, Bounty, arrived at the unchartered Pitcairn Island. This was after the crew had mutineered and sent Captain Bligh and his supporters adrift in a long boat. Among the many items the crew salvaged from the ship before it was scuttled was a Bible or, perhaps, several Bibles. As they colonized Pitcairn Island with some of the Tahitian women they met along their previous travels they formed a Christian group later becoming an established church. From their reading of scripture ALONE - with NO outside influences whatsoever - they became 7th-day Sabbath keepers.
So do you believe the apostles were in sin for worshiping on the Lord's Day?
That's Paul. Or is it? Nowadays it's disputed that it was Paul who wrote Hebrews. And, if he didn't, then Hebrews was written by an unknown author. So, are you saying that it was Paul or an unknown author who was responsible for having abrogated the Creation Sabbath? Good grief, some of you guys are an easy sell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
We honestly don't know. The writer didn't identify himself/herself. But it's inspired nonetheless.
Because YOU say that it's inspired? We have to take your word for this claim? Maybe it is inspired. Maybe it is not inspired. How can anyone actually KNOW that it's inspired? If it were anything other than the Bible where personal beliefs account somehow for FACTS they would be immediately dismissed as simply being personal beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Having said that, Jesus said to come to HIM for rest. Matthew 11:28.
Yes. And, that's nice. But what does this have to do with the Creation Sabbath? Answer: Nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Look at the sermon on the mount. Did you realize that Jesus goes down the list of the 10 Commandments and the ONLY one that he didn't address was......the Sabbath?
The Sabbath was a way of life - the culture and the custom of the nation - for those being preached to. Why would this need to be reiterated specifically? They already kept the Sabbath. However, my answer to what you say above is ...I don't know why the Sabbath command was not mentioned.
What I DO know is that Jesus said nothing at all - no hint whatever - that the Sabbath command was to be done away with. INDEED - and, please follow - Jesus KNEW that the 7th-day Sabbath would STILL be adhered to BY His followers some 40 years after His death and resurrection. How so? Well, in Matthew 24:20 Jesus is preaching to the disciples about future events. He makes reference to the Siege of Jerusalem which occurred in 70AD. This would have been a time of great distress and upheaval for the disciples and Jesus forewarned them of this coming event.
Jesus tells them, "But pray ye that your flight (from Jerusalem) be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day."
Hmmm . . .this somehow does NOT compute with those who so militantly tell us that, by 70AD, some 40 years after Jesus' death and resurrection, Christians would have discarded the 7th-day Sabbath ...does it? Why would Jesus, while He had the opportunity, not have mentioned ..."By that time (70AD) you followers of me will not be keeping the 7th-day Sabbath" ...? It's BECAUSE the Sabbath was such a major weekly custom for the disciples that such an event would seriously disrupt their lives.
The mere thought of ever abrogating the Sabbath command (for no good reason, mind) would have been unthinkable for any 'God follower'. But, that's me hollering from by bedroom laptop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Why do you suppose that was? It's because HE is our Sabbath rest. We rest in HIM.
Nonsense. And, I've already explained WHY this is nonsense. However, would someone please explain in plain English what 'resting in Jesus' actually means and what it has to do with the Creation Sabbath? Please educate me.
For the record, Romulus, there is no "Christian" Sunday Sabbath except in the sense that some Christians mistakenly believe that such a thing is mandated. There is no specific day mandated for anything at all under the "New covenant," though there is common agreement to meet together for worship on Sunday for most. It is a practice that developed over time as I have mentioned, and associating it with the Mosaic Sabbath is an error.
< snipped > Post 184. Too long and I get bored having to keep re-reading my own stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
So do you believe the apostles were in sin for worshiping on the Lord's Day?
Well, we first have to establish what day is the Lord's Day, don't we? If you're referring to Revelation 1:10 where John tells us that he was 'in the spirit on the Lord's day" this has nothing to do with either the 7th-day Sabbath or the bogus RCC Sunday. Revelation is about, among other things, last day events. John is telling us that he was 'in vision' and about to reveal the past and future events that would culminate in the coming of the Lord, Jesus, i.e. the Lord's day. Revelation 1:10 is the only time in scripture that the term 'the Lord's day' occurs. However, our good Roman Catholic friends chose to use that term when they exchanged the solemnity of the 7th-day Sabbath to that of Sunday. Sunday became 'the Lord's day' and, for no other reason than it having been so named by the RCC, mainstream Christians have taken that term on board to justify their 'Sunday sabbath'.
But anyway, let us play the devil's advocate and say that Revelation 1:10 DOES refer to an actual day rather than a series of events leading up to the coming of the Lord. It doesn't but let us play the game anyway. That day - the Lord's day - would refer to the 7th-day Sabbath. Why? Because Jesus Himself said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath. Therefore, the 7th-day Sabbath is 'the day of which He is Lord' ...get it?
By the way, I'm simply the messenger ...don't shoot me.
Oh, as an addendum to my above post, while Jesus referred to Himself as 'Lord of the Sabbath', He also said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. You will notice that Jesus DID NOT say that the Sabbath was made for the JEW but that the Sabbath was made for MAN. Now, according to Strong's Bible Concordance, 'man', in the context of Jesus' statement, is 'a human being'. Check it out for yourselves if you have a Strong's. It's #444 in the Greek Dictionary. So, according to this definition which is, presumably, correct, Jesus said (using the New Testament Greek language for definition) that the Sabbath was made for the human being.
The church was worshipping on Sunday long before Constantine was even born. Here is the historical proof.
1.)The Epistle of Barnabas (c AD 80-120)
CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.
''Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.''[Bolding mine]
1 On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure; 2 but let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled. 3 For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, "In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king," saith the Lord, "and my name is wonderful among the heathen." [Bolding mine]
JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN (c. AD. 150-160)
CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. [Bolding mine]
Constantine wasn't born until c. AD 272 to 280 which was long after the church began Sunday worship.
And no, Christians do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath.
Alot of those 1st-century church leaders were very anti Semitic too, so anything Jewish like the Sabbath, they would have been fully against. So you have to ownder if their view on the Sabbath was bias as well.
For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor...it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity. -- Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians
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Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it. -- "Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)
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We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.
The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark. -- Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)
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The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason. -- John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed."
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Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men. -- Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"
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