What do Mormons really believe? Let's discuss Mormonism!!! (Chicago, meaning, accept)

[coolcats]

Originally Posted by Birdy_56

Not quite, my friend, I hold in my hands the Book of Mormon and have read it. There are glaring blunders that encompass more than simply the grammar. Key passages regarding Deity in the original 1830 version were changed in 1837 to reflect Joseph Smiths changing doctrine concerning God. What in 1830 was the "mother of God", in 7 short years became "the mother of the Son of God" & "the Lamb of God, even the Eternal Father" became in 7 years "The Son of the Eternal Father."



There have been over 3900 revisions of "the most correct of any book on earth", most of them changes to correct embarrassing spelling and grammatical errors, and in the case of Ether 1, Page 546, for example, regarding King Benjamin, the name has been changed to King Mosiah. King Benjamin was already dead when these events took place (according to Book of Mormon Chronology.)



I am sure Oliver Cowdery made mistakes, and the proofreaders, and typesetters.

The Mormon church has made many changes to the Book of Mormon in order to correct Joseph Smith's poor grammar and spelling. Should this be necessary given the manner in which J.S. produced the book. According to eye-witness testimony, J.S. gave his scribe a word-for-word dictation of what he read off the seer stone in his hat. The fact that J.S. simply dictated the words he read on the stone supposedly proved that the Book of Mormon came from God and not from Joseph Smith.

This view was taught by Joseph F. Smith, 6th President of the Mormon church. On Saturday, February 25, 1881, Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his journal:



(Page 168 Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, typed copy at the Utah State Historical Society)

Birdy – would you say you are furthering God’s will by bringing up all these accusations (all of which have been repeated before)?

[censusdata]

Originally Posted by coolcats

Birdy – would you say you are furthering God’s will by bringing up all these accusations (all of which have been repeated before)?

New Testament Christians were told examine all doctrines to make sure that they are correct.

The Bereans were commended because "they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11)Paul also urges Timothy to "command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer" (I Tim 1:3)

This notion that everyone can have their own doctrine and agree to not question each other about it simply isn't found in the Bible I read

[zimbabwe]

Originally Posted by Birdy_56

The Mormon church has made many changes to the Book of Mormon in order to correct Joseph Smith's poor grammar and spelling. Should this be necessary given the manner in which J.S. produced the book.

"Joseph did not render the writing on the gold plates into the English language in his own style of language as many people believe. But every word and every letter was given him by the gift and power of God. So it is the work of God and not of Joseph Smith, and it was done in this way … The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect the writing on the stone would remain there."

According to eye-witness testimony, J.S. gave his scribe a word-for-word dictation of what he read off the seer stone in his hat. The fact that J.S. simply dictated the words he read on the stone supposedly proved that the Book of Mormon came from God and not from Joseph Smith.

This view was taught by Joseph F. Smith, 6th President of the Mormon church. On Saturday, February 25, 1881, Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his journal:



(Page 168 Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, typed copy at the Utah State Historical Society)

Birdy:

I appreciate your specifics. It makes it much easier to have a rational discussion. By the way I am impressed that you have completely read the Book of Mormon. I don't find that many who will take the time. I still doubt that you have on your own discovered over "3900 revisions" to the Book of Mormon, but so be it.

As you know spelling and punctuation were not standardized in 1828-1830. You have alluded to "Joseph Smith's poor spelling", which is a little misleading since who's to say in 1828 what is correct spelling. Of course if Joseph Smith is claiming that every word, every letter, along with every dot, comma, and semi-colon was inspired of God, then you have reason to complain--maybe.

Your arguement hinges on a journal entry made by a Mr. Huntington in 1881 in which he says that Joseph F. Smith told him how the book was translated. Now Joseph F. Smith was 5 years old when the prophet was killed so he must be repeating what he was told by someone else (perhaps in your study you know who). That would make Mr. Huntington's account at best third-hand and 52 years after the event, if I figure correctly. To be fair, others gave similar accounts of the translation and others gave differing accounts of the translation. One thing is for certain, however; Joseph Smith did not elaborate or give a detailed account on the process of translation. Another thing is for certain, those who were the most intimately involved, the three witnesses, two of which actually served as scribes for Joseph Smith, were absolutely convinced that the translation was of God and maintained their testimonies all their lives, even though all were excommunicated from the church.

I will give my opinion about the translation process. Where there were difficult words, proper names, words without an English equivalent, and so forth, I believe Joseph did translate letter by letter. Scholarly study of the original manuscript seems to support this theory, as does Emma Smith's account. I do not believe that this was the case for every word. As far as punctuation, much of it was produced by the printer himself. Errors also likely entered into the text as Oliver Cowdery copied the original manuscript by hand--all 464 pages of it--to use as the printer's copy. Errors, in my opinion, would be inevitable. But the precepts and teachings of the Book of Mormon are intact and are another testament of Jesus Christ.

[coolcats]

Originally Posted by censusdata

New Testament Christians were told examine all doctrines to make sure that they are correct.

The Bereans were commended because "they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11)Paul also urges Timothy to "command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer" (I Tim 1:3)

This notion that everyone can have their own doctrine and agree to not question each other about it simply isn't found in the Bible I read

Oh, I don't think everyone should have their own doctrine. You can have your beliefs and we'll have ours. But only one set of beliefs will ultimately be found correct.

I simply hope to point out that constant nit-picking is not how I believe Christ would act. It is by its nature Pharisaical, as they sought to catch Christ by some slip of the tongue or some deed.

Therefore I believe that those who engage in such tactics are not acting in a manner consistent with Christian principles. I think we hold a common belief that true Christians will be known by their fruits. Cynically bashing and engaging in destructive -- rather than constructive -- dialog is not a fruit of true Christianity.

In my opinion the people who originate such misleading material are the truly pathetic ones. That's compared to most of the people on this board who repeat it because they learned it in Bible school or from a sermon. For those people, I am more sad than anything. Because they cannot see past this cycle and they find it perfectly acceptable. After all, if their parents or their pastor did it, it must be ok in their minds.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by zimbabwe

As you know spelling and punctuation were not standardized in 1828-1830. You have alluded to "Joseph Smith's poor spelling", which is a little misleading since who's to say in 1828 what is correct spelling. Of course if Joseph Smith is claiming that every word, every letter, along with every dot, comma, and semi-colon was inspired of God, then you have reason to complain--maybe.

If the Hebrew text of the Old Covenant, and the Greek Koine of the New, possessed any of these blunders it would be necessary to question it in depth!

Your arguement hinges on a journal entry made by a Mr. Huntington in 1881 in which he says that Joseph F. Smith told him how the book was translated. Now Joseph F. Smith was 5 years old when the prophet was killed so he must be repeating what he was told by someone else (perhaps in your study you know who). That would make Mr. Huntington's account at best third-hand and 52 years after the event, if I figure correctly. To be fair, others gave similar accounts of the translation and others gave differing accounts of the translation. One thing is for certain, however; Joseph Smith did not elaborate or give a detailed account on the process of translation. Another thing is for certain, those who were the most intimately involved, the three witnesses, two of which actually served as scribes for Joseph Smith, were absolutely convinced that the translation was of God and maintained their testimonies all their lives, even though all were excommunicated from the church.

David Whitmer (Address To All Believers In Christ P.12)

Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated...

When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [i] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down.

-W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse, Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12 (June 15, 1879), pp. 190-91.-

This view was taught by Joseph F. Smith, 6th President of the Mormon church. On Saturday, February 25, 1881, Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his journal:

:

I went to Provo to a quarterly Stake Conference. Heard Joseph F. Smith describe the manner of translating the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith the Prophet and Seer, which was as follows as near as I can recollect the substance of his description. Joseph did not render the writing on the gold plates into the English language in his own style of language as many people believe. But every word and every letter was given him by the gift and power of God. So it is the work of God and not of Joseph Smith, and it was done in this way … The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect the writing on the stone would remain there.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by coolcats

Birdy – would you say you are furthering God’s will by bringing up all these accusations (all of which have been repeated before)?

Coolcats: I rest my life on the will and purposes of God in utmost diligence.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by zimbabwe

I will give my opinion about the translation process. Where there were difficult words, proper names, words without an English equivalent, and so forth, I believe Joseph did translate letter by letter. Scholarly study of the original manuscript seems to support this theory, as does Emma Smith's account.

Emma Smith's account does indeed support this.

I do not believe that this was the case for every word. As far as punctuation, much of it was produced by the printer himself.

It is not the punctuation that is at issue. The Hebrew and Koine Greek text had no punctuation, no chapters, and no verses.

Errors also likely entered into the text as Oliver Cowdery copied the original manuscript by hand--all 464 pages of it--to use as the printer's copy. Errors, in my opinion, would be inevitable.

Something as important as another testament of Jesus Christ would not be guarded? I guarantee you that if old Birdy laboured with his head in a hat peering into a seer stone for 464 pages of revelation; no printer, no scribe, no nothing would mar the effort! Nothing!

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by coolcats

Oh, I don't think everyone should have their own doctrine. You can have your beliefs and we'll have ours. But only one set of beliefs will ultimately be found correct.

Read (Galations 4:21-31) about Hagar and Sarah, Abraham's 2 wives and sons, and that will answer who will ultimately be found correct.

Galations 4: 21-31

21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

24These things may be taken figuratively,for the women represent two covenants.
One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.

25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother........

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.

29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.


Paul answers your question this way. Either you are a slave to the law and will be condemned or you are free from all the laws and will have eternal life. This is in the present tense, you're free now or condemned now.

[GENO-777]

Originally Posted by Hiram

I have a couple of questions for the Mormons.

What and (or) who are the spirits that you are asking?
Where in scripture does it say to perform the above?

Any one that is talking to you about God, ghost or live.

It's in the Bible, I don't post chapter and verse, because then it will be to easy for you to go to that part, read the "Book" yourself you'll find it soon enough, and you will learn something that you don't already know. And I'm not a mormon.

[zimbabwe]

Birdy:

Since you quote David Whitmer it is interesting to read what he said about the book of Mormon. David Whitmer never did return to the Chruch (in Salt Lake City), but his testimony regarding the Book of Mormon never waivered.



David Whitmer (Address To All Believers In Christ P.14):


If you will not grant a possibility of the Book of Mormon being true, and sit in judgment and hastily condemn it after reading what I have written, you can surely see for yourself that your heart is full of prejudice. Remember that prejudice is not of God. It is the spirit that hastily condemned and stoned the prophets of God in all ages past. So beware, and look well to your own heart, that Satan does not blind your understanding to the truth. If you are open to investigation and conviction, I pray you to read the Book of Mormon with a prayerful heart. All persons who are spiritual, having a fair understanding of the scriptures, how they can read that Book and reject it, is very strange indeed. The Book carries conviction with it. The wise men of this world could never write a book like it. Any one without prejudice, who is honestly seeking for truth, can see the finger of God in that book. It makes plain the doctrines which are so obscure in the New Testament, and over which the religious world is divided. For instance, the mode of baptism; the "signs" or spiritual gifts which Christ said in plain words should follow them that believe in Him. All who are not blinded to the understanding of the New Testament scriptures, will admit that the spiritual gifts should be with the believers in Christ to-day; that the reason why the spiritual gifts are not following the believers to-day, is because they have not that strong and living faith that the ancient church had — down to about 200 years after the death of the Apostles: the Book of Mormon explains this matter in full. Likewise many other questions of vital importance in the doctrine of Christ, which the Christian world has been contending and disputing about for ages, this Book comes forth from God to explain them.