Only those who do good works will enter the kingdom of God. (believers, sin)
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trettep has it right. It's good works done in the name of Jesus and by the will of God + belief in Him as Savior that saves a man .
The ironic thing is that the one verse that started all this false theology about saved by faith alone was not even written by Paul:
are not even Paul's words. They are from Ephesians, a pseudepigraphical epistle that all scholars recognize as a forgery.
Completely untrue. You make it sound like there is no doubt that the epistle is a forgery and that is simply not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Forget Paul the heretic, for a second, and look at Jesus' words. All through the gospels He says "works" 100 times for every time He says "faith" in Him. In fact, He never says "believe on Me" until the last gospel.
Read the parable of the talents and then tell me that was solely about salvation by grace through faith alone. In fact it was all about putting to work to talents (abilities) God had given to each of the servants; putting them to use (actions) to show their Master a return (profit--works) on His investment in them.
Pure works. No faith involved at all.
Get real. Get with it.
Again, no understanding that the cross changed everything. You have to look at who He was talking to at the time. We are no more servants but sons.
Paul was no heretic. Your "pure works", as well as everyone else's is garbage. You want to "get to it", be my guest. It's nothing in His eyes, gives strength to sin and separates you from grace.
I also like how everyone ignores John 6 :29 despite three people bringing it up about 4 times. Read that and tell me again about works.
No, Jesus said;" All those who do good to the resurrection of life", this may not agree with Pauls teaching but it is the teaching the Father sent with Jesus.
You are correct that Jesus work was finished but He sent His followers to continue it. You choose to reject it.
Scripture says;"My chosen one's shall inherit my holy mountain, my servants shall dwell there."
Jesus said; "Worship God alone, Him alone shall you serve."
"If anyone would serve me he must follow me."
"Anyone who is not willing to take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Jesus and Paul do not disagree. Both Jesus and Paul taught that entering into an eternal relationship with God was by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by meritorious works on our part.
While a superficial look at John 5:29 appears to say that works are a requirement for salvation, it does not. Scripture must be read in context and compared with other Scripture. John 5:28-29 reads as follows.
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29] and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
The word 'deeds' is not actually in the verse although the words 'good' and 'evil' are both in the plural.
What Jesus said in John 5:29 is most immediately explained by John 5:24.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Jesus is simply saying in John 5:29 that the good is to believe in Him. Believing 'Him who sent Me' - the Father [v.24] is not different from believing in Christ, as He who has seen the Son has seen the Father. Jesus' meaning in John 5:29 is that those who believe in Him will be resurrected to life, while those who do not believe in Him will be resurrected to judgment. Judgment in context being in opposition to life, and therefore speaking of condemnation.
John 5:29 should further be read in the light of John 6:27-29 where Jesus refutes the legalistic belief of the Jewish crowd who thought there were works of God they could do by which they could earn eternal life.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (erga- plural) of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work (ergon; singular - one work) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
I have in the past said that Jesus called believing in Him a work because it was something that you must do, although it is a non-meritorious work in contrast with legalistic works for which one could take credit. But it may instead be that Jesus was making a play on words as it were. Since the Jews, being under the Mosaic law thought in terms of having to keep the law in order to earn eternal life, Jesus spoke to them on that basis and so was saying they could not do any works to earn eternal life. The only 'work' which is not really a work, is to believe in Him for eternal life. In either case, Jesus was refuting the belief that works were a requirement for entering into an eternal relationship with God.
As for Jesus' work being finished, He said, Tetalestai - it is finished (John 19:30). This is in the perfect tense. The Greek perfect tense means that Jesus' work had been accomplished with continuing results.
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
His meaning was that His work on the cross which made eternal salvation possible had been accomplished.
Jesus was referring to His redemptive work in which He paid the penalty for the sins of the world in full. The work of Christ on the cross involved redemption (Gal. 3:13), unlimited atonement - Christ died for all (2 Cor. 5:14), Expiation (another word for atonement) which emphasizes the removal of guilt through a payment of the penalty (Col. 2:14), Propitiation [satisfaction] - Jesus' substitutional sacrifice satisfied the righteousness of the Father (Rom. 3:25).
Christ's work made possible the imputation of God's righteousness to those who believe in Him (Rom. 3:22; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9), justification for those who receive Christ as Savior (Rom. 4:1-5; Gal. 3:16), regeneration - because Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the world, anyone who receives Christ as Savior is born again or regenerated (John 3:1-18).
Of course you leave out all the verses that are a work.
"He who believes in me shall do the works I do"
That is how one believes, by doing the works that Jesus was sent to do. By doing this you glorify Him and the Father.
John 3:17 "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Those who do not spread the truth are evil those who spread the truth come to the light and do the works of God.
Jesus and Paul do not disagree. Both Jesus and Paul taught that entering into an eternal relationship with God was by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by meritorious works on our part.
While a superficial look at John 5:29 appears to say that works are a requirement for salvation, it does not. Scripture must be read in context and compared with other Scripture. John 5:28-29 reads as follows.
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29] and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
The word 'deeds' is not actually in the verse although the words 'good' and 'evil' are both in the plural.
What Jesus said in John 5:29 is most immediately explained by John 5:24.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Jesus is simply saying in John 5:29 that the good is to believe in Him. Believing 'Him who sent Me' - the Father [v.24] is not different from believing in Christ, as He who has seen the Son has seen the Father. Jesus' meaning in John 5:29 is that those who believe in Him will be resurrected to life, while those who do not believe in Him will be resurrected to judgment. Judgment in context being in opposition to life, and therefore speaking of condemnation.
John 5:29 should further be read in the light of John 6:27-29 where Jesus refutes the legalistic belief of the Jewish crowd who thought there were works of God they could do by which they could earn eternal life.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (erga- plural) of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work (ergon; singular - one work) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
I have in the past said that Jesus called believing in Him a work because it was something that you must do, although it is a non-meritorious work in contrast with legalistic works for which one could take credit. But it may instead be that Jesus was making a play on words as it were. Since the Jews, being under the Mosaic law thought in terms of having to keep the law in order to earn eternal life, Jesus spoke to them on that basis and so was saying they could not do any works to earn eternal life. The only 'work' which is not really a work, is to believe in Him for eternal life. In either case, Jesus was refuting the belief that works were a requirement for entering into an eternal relationship with God.
As for Jesus' work being finished, He said, Tetalestai - it is finished (John 19:30). This is in the perfect tense. The Greek perfect tense means that Jesus' work had been accomplished with continuing results.
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
His meaning was that His work on the cross which made eternal salvation possible had been accomplished.
Jesus was referring to His redemptive work in which He paid the penalty for the sins of the world in full. The work of Christ on the cross involved redemption (Gal. 3:13), unlimited atonement - Christ died for all (2 Cor. 5:14), Expiation (another word for atonement) which emphasizes the removal of guilt through a payment of the penalty (Col. 2:14), Propitiation [satisfaction] - Jesus' substitutional sacrifice satisfied the righteousness of the Father (Rom. 3:25).
Christ's work made possible the imputation of God's righteousness to those who believe in Him (Rom. 3:22; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9), justification for those who receive Christ as Savior (Rom. 4:1-5; Gal. 3:16), regeneration - because Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the world, anyone who receives Christ as Savior is born again or regenerated (John 3:1-18).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver
Mike 555;
Of course you leave out all the verses that are a work.
"He who believes in me shall do the works I do"
That is how one believes, by doing the works that Jesus was sent to do. By doing this you glorify Him and the Father.
John 3:17 "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Those who do not spread the truth are evil those who spread the truth come to the light and do the works of God.
There's no need to make accusing remarks as in the first sentence of your post.
The Bible does not contradict itself. Both Jesus and Paul are in agreement that eternal salvation is through faith in Him (in Christ.) Both also agree that the believer should have works. They simply are not the means of receiving the free gift of eternal life. To believe in Christ means simply to believe that He died for your sins and that He rose again and therefore trust in His finished work on the cross.
Regarding John 14:12 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father., Jesus was speaking to the apostles who like Jesus would be able to perform miracles, to heal the sick and raise the dead. When was the last time that you did these things? You never have.
John 3:20-21 does not contradict the fact that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. Yes, many men hate the light and refuse to come to Christ that they may be saved. John 5:40 - and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. There are men who prefer to do evil and will avoid the light. But men who do what is good even though it is good only from man's perspective and not acceptable to God have no reason not to come to the light.
Again, Jesus said in John 6:27-29 that salvation is through faith in Him and not by works. And again, Scripture has to be compared with Scripture and understood within its context in order to properly understand the meaning of what is being said.
Eternal life is a free gift. Jesus said so in John 4:10,14.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." . . . 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit (John 7:37) who is the agent of regeneration when a person simply trusts in Christ's finished work on the cross.
;To believe in Christ means simply to believe that He died for your sins and that He rose again and therefore trust in His finished work on the cross.
That may be your interpretation from Paul but Jesus never said such a thing.
He said to follow Him. To continue in His word. Paul never did because he never bothered to get the words of Jesus and use them as Jesus commanded.
He said ; John 15:16 NKJV
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you
Jesus and Paul do not disagree. Both Jesus and Paul taught that entering into an eternal relationship with God was by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by meritorious works on our part.
While a superficial look at John 5:29 appears to say that works are a requirement for salvation, it does not. Scripture must be read in context and compared with other Scripture. John 5:28-29 reads as follows.
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29] and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
The word 'deeds' is not actually in the verse although the words 'good' and 'evil' are both in the plural.
What Jesus said in John 5:29 is most immediately explained by John 5:24.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Jesus is simply saying in John 5:29 that the good is to believe in Him. Believing 'Him who sent Me' - the Father [v.24] is not different from believing in Christ, as He who has seen the Son has seen the Father. Jesus' meaning in John 5:29 is that those who believe in Him will be resurrected to life, while those who do not believe in Him will be resurrected to judgment. Judgment in context being in opposition to life, and therefore speaking of condemnation.
John 5:29 should further be read in the light of John 6:27-29 where Jesus refutes the legalistic belief of the Jewish crowd who thought there were works of God they could do by which they could earn eternal life.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (erga- plural) of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work (ergon; singular - one work) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
I have in the past said that Jesus called believing in Him a work because it was something that you must do, although it is a non-meritorious work in contrast with legalistic works for which one could take credit. But it may instead be that Jesus was making a play on words as it were. Since the Jews, being under the Mosaic law thought in terms of having to keep the law in order to earn eternal life, Jesus spoke to them on that basis and so was saying they could not do any works to earn eternal life. The only 'work' which is not really a work, is to believe in Him for eternal life. In either case, Jesus was refuting the belief that works were a requirement for entering into an eternal relationship with God.
As for Jesus' work being finished, He said, Tetalestai - it is finished (John 19:30). This is in the perfect tense. The Greek perfect tense means that Jesus' work had been accomplished with continuing results.
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
His meaning was that His work on the cross which made eternal salvation possible had been accomplished.
Jesus was referring to His redemptive work in which He paid the penalty for the sins of the world in full. The work of Christ on the cross involved redemption (Gal. 3:13), unlimited atonement - Christ died for all (2 Cor. 5:14), Expiation (another word for atonement) which emphasizes the removal of guilt through a payment of the penalty (Col. 2:14), Propitiation [satisfaction] - Jesus' substitutional sacrifice satisfied the righteousness of the Father (Rom. 3:25).
Christ's work made possible the imputation of God's righteousness to those who believe in Him (Rom. 3:22; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9), justification for those who receive Christ as Savior (Rom. 4:1-5; Gal. 3:16), regeneration - because Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the world, anyone who receives Christ as Savior is born again or regenerated (John 3:1-18).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
There's no need to make accusing remarks as in the first sentence of your post.
The Bible does not contradict itself. Both Jesus and Paul are in agreement that eternal salvation is through faith in Him (in Christ.) Both also agree that the believer should have works. They simply are not the means of receiving the free gift of eternal life. To believe in Christ means simply to believe that He died for your sins and that He rose again and therefore trust in His finished work on the cross.
Regarding John 14:12 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father., Jesus was speaking to the apostles who like Jesus would be able to perform miracles, to heal the sick and raise the dead. When was the last time that you did these things? You never have.
John 3:20-21 does not contradict the fact that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. Yes, many men hate the light and refuse to come to Christ that they may be saved. John 5:40 - and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. There are men who prefer to do evil and will avoid the light. But men who do what is good even though it is good only from man's perspective and not acceptable to God have no reason not to come to the light.
Again, Jesus said in John 6:27-29 that salvation is through faith in Him and not by works. And again, Scripture has to be compared with Scripture and understood within its context in order to properly understand the meaning of what is being said.
Eternal life is a free gift. Jesus said so in John 4:10,14.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." . . . 14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit (John 7:37) who is the agent of regeneration when a person simply trusts in Christ's finished work on the cross.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver
Mike 555 says
''To believe in Christ means simply to believe that He died for your sins and that He rose again and therefore trust in His finished work on the cross.''
That may be your interpretation from Paul but Jesus never said such a thing.
He said to follow Him. To continue in His word. Paul never did because he never bothered to get the words of Jesus and use them as Jesus commanded.
He said ; John 15:16 NKJV
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you
You've already been shown from Jesus' own words that eternal life is a free gift and that it is not received by works. Works belong to the believer's spiritual life after having been saved by grace through faith. But works do not play a part in entering into an eternal relationship with God. You've been shown this. If you choose to close your eyes to this fact that's your choice. I'm not going to keep going over with you what has already been made clear.
If you are saved, you will serve in obedience to Him if you're able. There are people physically incapable of anything and they can accept the Lord and be saved but they can't serve. I'm feeling a twinge of legalism here....
It is by Grace we are saved by Faith. The work of Faith is Love. Anyone that doesn't have Love is not saved. Therefore, anyone that doesn't have WORKS (LOVE) is not saved.
Completely untrue. You make it sound like there is no doubt that the epistle is a forgery and that is simply not the case.
Again, no understanding that the cross changed everything. You have to look at who He was talking to at the time. We are no more servants but sons.
Paul was no heretic. Your "pure works", as well as everyone else's is garbage. You want to "get to it", be my guest. It's nothing in His eyes, gives strength to sin and separates you from grace.
I also like how everyone ignores John 6 :29 despite three people bringing it up about 4 times. Read that and tell me again about works.
I'll tell you why salvation by faith alone is so popular in the so-called "Christian" community today: because it's cheap grace; because it is a salvation that a person can ask for after a lifetime of sin and be guaranteed safety from eternal torment in hell: just ask Jesus into your heart on your deathbed and everything you've done wrong in a life that has hurt others beyond repair e.g. fathers who've so damaged their daughters psychologically through sexual abuse that the daughters grow up to become prostitutes because of a sense of utter violation and worthlessness--is forgiven and forgotten right on the spot.
No wonder people flock to this doctrine. It gives them a sense of comfort and security knowing they don't have to lift a finger to skate into heaven. They have a get-out-of-jail-free card in their hand with no worries and especially no obligations to do anything afterwards except "love Jesus".
Jesus said, "By their works you will know them" but with salvation by grace alone you don't need any works at all--so no one, even Jesus Himself, would know whether you were good fruit or bad fruit. That's pretty handy when you want an easy way under the pearly gate into heaven. Imagine Jesus checking the Books on Judgement Day and scratching His head because He doesn't find anything under your name, and Michael has to whisper in His ear, "He accepted You as His savior by faith alone. There ARE no works", whereupon Jesus nods in understanding and then waves you into the Kingdom.
You've already been shown from Jesus' own words that eternal life is a free gift and that it is not received by works. Works belong to the believer's spiritual life after having been saved by grace through faith. But works do not play a part in entering into an eternal relationship with God. You've been shown this. If you choose to close your eyes to this fact that's your choice. I'm not going to keep going over with you what has already been made clear.
The verses you post show your lack of their comprehension. You are not willing to come to the son to possess life. Eternal life is in the son but you refuse to come to him to possess life. What exactly do you think come to him means? Why would Jesus say He sent his disciples as He was sent with the same words? To continue His mission of course. Sure its hard to accept.
Actually, you have been shown in Jesus own words that His followers are suppose to teach as He taught with the same words but you like the wide road of condemnation and refuse to come to the light.
As it is written; "Abide in my love. You will abide in my love if you keep my commandments just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.
"He commanded me what to say and how to speak and since I know His commandment is eternal life what I say is spoken just as He instructed me."
Jesus said to abide in His love. As you can see by those verses that to abide in His love you must keep the same words He was commanded.
That is just another way He said to continue in His word.
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