Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'll tell you why salvation by faith alone is so popular in the so-called "Christian" community today: because it's cheap grace; because it is a salvation that a person can ask for after a lifetime of sin and be guaranteed safety from eternal torment in hell: just ask Jesus into your heart on your deathbed and everything you've done wrong in a life that has hurt others beyond repair e.g. fathers who've so damaged their daughters psychologically through sexual abuse that the daughters grow up to become prostitutes because of a sense of utter violation and worthlessness--is forgiven and forgotten right on the spot.
No wonder people flock to this doctrine. It gives them a sense of comfort and security knowing they don't have to lift a finger to skate into heaven. They have a get-out-of-jail-free card in their hand with no worries and especially no obligations to do anything afterwards except "love Jesus".
Jesus said, "By their works you will know them" but with salvation by grace alone you don't need any works at all--so no one, even Jesus Himself, would know whether you were good fruit or bad fruit. That's pretty handy when you want an easy way under the pearly gate into heaven. Imagine Jesus checking the Books on Judgement Day and scratching His head because He doesn't find anything under your name, and Michael has to whisper in His ear, "He accepted You as His savior by faith alone. There ARE no works", whereupon Jesus nods in understanding and then waves you into the Kingdom.
I repeat: CHEAP GRACE.
I've heard this "cheap grace" nonsense before. There's nothing cheap about Jesus' sacrifice. It's laughable that people think they can actually do works without faith and grace. Knock yourself out and have fun.
It also speaks volumes that you judge other's salvation. The Pharisees did that and Jesus had some choice words for them.
You also show a great lack of understanding by thinking that people who depend on faith and grace will have no works. And your deathbed conversion? Yeah, it's that simple. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It changes nothing.
I've heard this "cheap grace" nonsense before. There's nothing cheap about Jesus' sacrifice. It's laughable that people think they can actually do works without faith and grace. Knock yourself out and have fun.
It also speaks volumes that you judge other's salvation. The Pharisees did that and Jesus had some choice words for them.
You also show a great lack of understanding by thinking that people who depend on faith and grace will have no works. And your deathbed conversion? Yeah, it's that simple. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It changes nothing.
I'll stick with grace.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of the few Christian ministers to oppose Adolf Hitler in Germany, coined the term "cheap grace." In Bonhoffer's case he was hung two weeks prior to the war ending for his active opposition to Hitler. Bonhoffer was using the term to characterize the kind of wartime German Christians who certainly believed, but stood by and watched as Hitler disposed of millions of people. You are correct. Grace was not cheap fior God, it cost Him a son. But it is certainly cheapened by people who wave a flag of grace while driving by the homeless begging on the street or raising concerns about how it is too expensive to provide health care for all our people. It is cheap grace for those who won't work in a soup kitchen even once a month to minister to those who come in sometimes bringing their children to get a paltry mess of pottage, but will sing God's praises just before going to the church supper.
It is cheap grace for those driving fancy new automobiles to work every day without a thought for the poor souls standing in the rain or snow, or the wind or heat, while they wait on busses. It is cheap grace for many that are standing on the promises of God, without the slightest urge to help those around them who would think it a miracle to find a decent job that paid enough that their children wouldn't be unsupervised latch key kids.
Here's the difference between knowing you have found grace, and simply talking about it. My wife and I now have only social security for income. In our first year of combined retirement I've already withdrawn a quarter of my 401K. We've moved back to Denver from Dallas to be near our grandchild and have not yet found physicians to accept our Medicare.
We live in a crowded apartment complex and have made acquaintance, not friends, with a family from Tennessee with four children. They sold everything they had to move out here because one of their children is deaf and they couldn't get her into a school for the deaf in Tennessee, but there is one of the best in the nation in Denver. They drive a six year old van with the front tires almost completely bald. And when winter comes they will have four kids in that car which absolutely will not make it anywhere safely on a snowy day.
Here is Grace that Costs!!! There is no way my wife and I can sit by and not buy them new tires so they can get on the road safely. They both smoke and we have rationalized that if they didn't it wouldn't take them long to accumulate the money for new tires.
But you see, if you KNOW the Son of God in your heart, that's not how He deals with YOU! He put them before us to find out if we live by cheap grace or by the grace of God Who gave that Son for us. So now I've got to find a way to buy those tires for that family---anonymously. It's no easy task.
But the grace that cost God much will never cost His disciples nothing. If it were easy to do, God wouldn't be looking for people to prove to Him they recognize how costly grace is---and are grateful for it.
As another poster wrote on another thread, here is a question for each of us that claims to be a follower of Jesus----- If you know God's grace has saved you, what have you done today to show Him you are thankful?
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of the few Christian ministers to oppose Adolf Hitler in Germany, coined the term "cheap grace." In Bonhoffer's case he was hung two weeks prior to the war ending for his active opposition to Hitler. Bonhoffer was using the term to characterize the kind of wartime German Christians who certainly believed, but stood by and watched as Hitler disposed of millions of people. You are correct. Grace was not cheap fior God, it cost Him a son. But it is certainly cheapened by people who wave a flag of grace while driving by the homeless begging on the street or raising concerns about how it is too expensive to provide health care for all our people. It is cheap grace for those who won't work in a soup kitchen even once a month to minister to those who come in sometimes bringing their children to get a paltry mess of pottage, but will sing God's praises just before going to the church supper.
It is cheap grace for those driving fancy new automobiles to work every day without a thought for the poor souls standing in the rain or snow, or the wind or heat, while they wait on busses. It is cheap grace for many that are standing on the promises of God, without the slightest urge to help those around them who would think it a miracle to find a decent job that paid enough that their children wouldn't be unsupervised latch key kids.
Here's the difference between knowing you have found grace, and simply talking about it. My wife and I now have only social security for income. In our first year of combined retirement I've already withdrawn a quarter of my 401K. We've moved back to Denver from Dallas to be near our grandchild and have not yet found physicians to accept our Medicare.
We live in a crowded apartment complex and have made acquaintance, not friends, with a family from Tennessee with four children. They sold everything they had to move out here because one of their children is deaf and they couldn't get her into a school for the deaf in Tennessee, but there is one of the best in the nation in Denver. They drive a six year old van with the front tires almost completely bald. And when winter comes they will have four kids in that car which absolutely will not make it anywhere safely on a snowy day.
Here is Grace that Costs!!! There is no way my wife and I can sit by and not buy them new tires so they can get on the road safely. They both smoke and we have rationalized that if they didn't it wouldn't take them long to accumulate the money for new tires.
But you see, if you KNOW the Son of God in your heart, that's not how He deals with YOU! He put them before us to find out if we live by cheap grace or by the grace of God Who gave that Son for us. So now I've got to find a way to buy those tires for that family---anonymously. It's no easy task.
But the grace that cost God much will never cost His disciples nothing. If it were easy to do, God wouldn't be looking for people to prove to Him they recognize how costly grace is---and are grateful for it.
As another poster wrote on another thread, here is a question for each of us that claims to be a follower of Jesus----- If you know God's grace has saved you, what have you done today to show Him you are thankful?
Thanks for your post. I think it's great that you want to help these people. I also think you're making my point. Because you know Jesus, you want to help. Are you doing it to guarantee yourselves a place in heaven or because you have compassion for them?
In reading your post, I can't get the sense of a attitude that says "geez, we can't afford this, but we better buy them tires so we can get to heaven." The impression I get is that you care about the children and parents and want to be a blessing. That sure sounds like grace working in you.
Not once will you find anyone here that says they have grace, so they can do nothing. Someone who knows Jesus will have good works. It's a fruit of grace. I don't know of anyone who says "I'm so glad I know Jesus and have grace. Now I can have affairs, do drugs, drink, and sin all I want because of grace!"
The legalists here will tell you to forget about grace, forget about faith, you have to have works to earn eternal life. How is that different than the law?
If someone know Jesus, His grace and faith, they WILL have good works. No doubt about it. Sometimes I think we all believe the same thing and just say it different. However, there is at least one here that insists that there is no faith or grace needed, just works. According to the bible, that's incorrect. When you start claiming (erroneously) that ALL scholars agree that Ephesians wasn't written by Paul, call Paul a heretic and ignore the epistles, we have to part ways.
Again, I'm not spending my time smoking, drinking and telling my mistress how happy I am that the grace of God forgives me. Quite the opposite. I love my family more and have more compassion for people than I used to. Do I still sin? Of course. Don't we all in one way or another? I don't know of anyone who doesn't.
Again, let me make this clear, I'm all for good works. I think it will be evident in a believer. However, it's not the good works that save us. It's the grace of God.
I wish you the best. By the way, when you want to give a gift anonymously, you may want to try gift cards. Most places have them, including tire places. They are easy to mail or somehow slip to someone. Easier than 4 tires anyways. They have worked well for me in the past.
I actually responded to Mike930, and you may be co fusing the two.
As I've written previously, there are no works without grace, and no grace without works. The two are inseparably intertwined, but that fact is not something that can be believed, it must be experienced.
People who are seeking God are forever throwing out "fleeces" to test if God is really leading them in some direction or another. A kind of, "are you really my Father" sort of question. Those who have had a heartfelt, life changing experience with Him know it works just the opposite. God is forever putting situations in front of us that ask us, "Are you really my child?"
It's only when we begin to see our path in life as one of service to God---"created for good works"--that we can at last have peace with all our frailties and shortcomings. As Mother Theresa once said, "I know God trusts me or He wouldn't give me all this work. Sometimes, I just wish He didn't trust me so much."
Refuting the opinion of those who maintain that there is no grace without works (on our part) is what the Bible says about it.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
If it is by grace, and salvation is (Ephesians 2:8), then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
All the work which made salvation possible was done by God. We do not work for the free gift of eternal life. Now people may choose to disregard what is plainly stated in Romans 11:6 giving preference to their own personal opinions, but that does not negate what the Bible says.
Works belong to the spiritual life of the believer who has already been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. They are not a requirement for receiving eternal life which is a free gift. You cannot work for a free gift. Otherwise it is neither free, or a gift.
Refuting the opinion of those who maintain that there is no grace without works (on our part) is what the Bible says about it.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
If it is by grace, and salvation is (Ephesians 2:8), then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
All the work which made salvation possible was done by God. We do not work for the free gift of eternal life. Now people may choose to disregard what is plainly stated in Romans 11:6 giving preference to their own personal opinions, but that does not negate what the Bible says.
Works belong to the spiritual life of the believer who has already been saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. They are not a requirement for receiving eternal life which is a free gift. You cannot work for a free gift. Otherwise it is neither free, or a gift.
Some people simply do not understand that.
That is what Paul says but the Prophets including Jesus say otherwise. I will follow them not someone like Paul who is a sinner.
"The upright will dwell in the land, the blameless shall remain in it"
"My chosen ones shall inherit my holy mountain, my servants shall dwell there."
"The righteous mans mouth speaks wisdom and his tongue does what id right, the law of his God is in his heart and he will not stumble."
And the point remains that no kind of works, works of the Law OR works of grace are going to "earn" anything......BUT, if works do NOT follow it is also clear that the "belief" noted is of the same order as that of the demons who tremble, it is NOT saving belief and will do no more good than that of the demons.
And the point remains that no kind of works, works of the Law OR works of grace are going to "earn" anything......BUT, if works do NOT follow it is also clear that the "belief" noted is of the same order as that of the demons who tremble, it is NOT saving belief and will do no more good than that of the demons.
Spot on. I wonder why the legalists keep ignoring this point.
And the point remains that no kind of works, works of the Law OR works of grace are going to "earn" anything......BUT, if works do NOT follow it is also clear that the "belief" noted is of the same order as that of the demons who tremble, it is NOT saving belief and will do no more good than that of the demons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930
Spot on. I wonder why the legalists keep ignoring this point.
No. What was said after 'BUT' is not spot on. Good works which are acceptable to God do not necessarily follow salvation. Everyone has works, either good or bad, humanly speaking, whether they are believers in Christ or not. But for the believer the issue is whether his works are produced by the energy of the flesh or under the filling of the Holy Spirit. While the unbeliever can have works which humanly speaking are good works, those works are not acceptable to God because they are only works of human righteousness. And as Isaiah 64:6 says, 'all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.' It doesn't say our 'unrighteousnesses', it says all of our 'righteousnesses.'
Likewise, the believer in Christ can have works which humanly speaking are good, but they are not acceptable to God because they are works which are produced by his own human righteousness and are called 'wood, hay, and stubble' in 1 Corinthians 3:12 and will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ while the believer himself is saved.
The only works of the believer which are acceptable to God are works which the believer does when filled with the Spirit with the result being that the works produced are done in the power of the Spirit instead of being done in the energy of the flesh. The believer is commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). This is not the same as being indwelt by the Spirit. Every church-age believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and cannot lose that indwelling. But the filling of the Spirit is lost when the believer sins. When the believer names the sin to God as per 1 John 1:9 the sin is forgiven and the believer is restored to fellowship which is also referred to as abiding in Christ. The believer cannot lose his eternal salvation, but sin puts the believer out of fellowship with God and into a state of carnality under the control of his old sin nature. If the believer never names or acknowledges his sins to God he stays out of fellowship and can not produce any works which are acceptable to God. It is quite possible for the believer who is eternally saved to never acknowledge his sins to God and remain in a continual state of carnality.
And the truth be told, there are unbelievers who can put many believers to shame in the works department. The belief that the believer will necessarily produce works which are acceptable to God is false.
By the way, James didn't make the comment about the demons also believing, but shuddering in James 2:19. It was his hypothetical opponent who said it in his argument against what James was saying. James in heading off possible objections to what he was saying adopted the position of an antagonist who disagreed with him but was missing James' point. James was simply saying that for the believer who is eternally saved to have a productive spiritual life he must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of the word.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-22-2014 at 12:41 PM..
Mike555, You dance all around the concept of works trying to make excuses but it is clear from many citations that good works ARE a necessary element accompanying belief. Look just a few verses earlier in James: 14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Then you misdirect:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
By the way, James didn't make the comment about the demons also believing, but shuddering in James 2:19. It was his hypothetical opponent who said it in his argument against what James was saying. James in heading off possible objections to what he was saying adopted the position of an antagonist who disagreed with him but was missing James' point. James was simply saying that for the believer who is eternally saved to have a productive spiritual life he must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of the word.
The 'hypothetical opponent" (actually someone who shared James' view)and the extent of what he said would depend on punctuation that is not there. Context would indicate that the extent of his point would be "You have faith and I have works (in addition) demonstrate your faith without your works and I will demonstrate my faith BY my works." But, as I said it was not an opponent, but a hypothetical questioner who was illustrating the clear meaning of what James was saying in the whole section of his letter. Why you think there is some advantage in claiming that saving faith does not include a commitment to service in doing the things that were prepared for us as new creatures in Christ (according to Peter) I can't understand.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Read Bonhoffer's book-- The Cost of Discipleship
