Only those who do good works will enter the kingdom of God. (testimony, Holy Spirit)
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The Sermon on the Mount is the first big public message of Jesus. Arguably it was the most important message for His short ministry on earth. It is baffling that out of everything He preached at that time, not once did He give the simple phrase, "Just believe on me and you shall be saved." In fact, the gist of His entire message is that followers of God will be actively living for Him.
But the perverted gospel that began late in the nineteenth century and which was brought to fruition by Billy Graham (who has since regretted the way in which he presented the gospel to so many millions) and by Bill Bright with Campus Crusade's four spiritual steps, has turned the religion OF Jesus from being one of loving your enemies, forgiving those who trespass against you, and being a good neighbor (as the Samaritan) to even those you don't know into a religion ABOUT Jesus with little emphasis on hearing the words of Jesus, but simply listening to --- and mostly misunderstanding---the words of a self-appointed apostle who never met Jesus in the flesh, avoided the original disciples who HAD walked and talked with Jesus (a total of only 3 weeks with those who knew Him???) and who ultimately is quoted more often, praised more vociferously, and subtly worshipped by modern Christians in a way that would disgust the most ardent "faith only" religious leaders of the church of the reformation.
Sorry, but that isn't a Jesus based faith. It is a man-made faith that excuses each slip instead of repenting for it, shrugs off failure to be a true and faithful servant rather than investing in the lives of others with the goodness of Christ coming from one's heart, and reduces true discipleship to an intellectual assent without a heart changing ASCENT into the arms of God.
Graceless attitudes about the needs of others for succor from those claiming to be children of God do not constitute the surpassing righteousness required to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Those works don't get one to Heaven, but they are demonstrable in those who are on that road. The hypocrites who claim salvation but won't pick up the cross ("pick up your cross and follow me") are called the sons of hell by Jesus in Matt 23:15 and will be assigned a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 24:51).
The only persons who can actually BE hypocrites are those who claim to be one thing while living like another. So if someone claims Christ as Lord, but by the life they live demonstrate they are a son of hell, the act of a profession of faith is fruitless---because they are fruitless and according to JESUS should be cut down and cast into the fire.
The baloney of which comes first, the chicken or the egg, with regard to faith and works is just that---baloney.
When a person is born into this world what comes first? Their body or their spirit? Or are both born simultaneously? When one is born of the spirit faith and works enter together. Now there may be some time for some to grow, but they are jointly equal. One cannot change the nature of a spirit-filled life. One cannot drift back and forth and be "carnal" but still be spirit filled. The hounds of Heaven forever pursue the true child of God bringing them back to repentance and pushing them toward greater good works.
If one hasn't felt that, then it's time to re-examine one's spiritual life. God knows His children, because His children ever make feeble attempts in the hope of hearing, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." They make those attempts not to gain salvation, but because they have it.
If God is truly your Father, what have you DONE today, to show Him your gratitude for His forgiveness? Not what have you prayed about, not what hymns you have sung, not what religious service have you attended, but rather who have you helped to walk, who have you fed when they were hungry, who have you comforted in their loneliness, whose lawn have you cut, who did you take to a doctor and pay for their care out of your own pocket, what child did you buy glasses for---in other words how have you emulated the Christ of the gospels in your actions today?
You see, Salvation Is More Complicated Than You Think, Dr. Alan P. Stanley, PhD, Dallas Theological Seminary, professor of biblical studies at Mueller College of Ministries, Queensland, Australia. He also pastors a local church.
1 (Red) - The Sermon on the Mount is not the only words Jesus spoke on the earth.
2 (Blue) - Gotta love the argument that takes a stand on what was NOT said.
3 (Purple) - Again - making the argument from something never insinuated in the Bible
As far as the rest, what this graduate/pastor does not understand is when people posses the Holy Spirit, they are one with Christ. Therefore it is not any of our righteousness or good deeds that gets us to eternal life. It's Christ's righteousness... it's His sinlessness. It's our union with His resume' of a sinless life that gets us to eternal life.
So he can put his worldly wisdom out with the trash, and simply read all of the Bible. It's in there.
1 (Red) - The Sermon on the Mount is not the only words Jesus spoke on the earth.
2 (Blue) - Gotta love the argument that takes a stand on what was NOT said.
3 (Purple) - Again - making the argument from something never insinuated in the Bible
As far as the rest, what this graduate/pastor does not understand is when people posses the Holy Spirit, they are one with Christ. Therefore it is not any of our righteousness or good deeds that gets us to eternal life. It's Christ's righteousness... it's His sinlessness. It's our union with His resume' of a sinless life that gets us to eternal life.
So he can put his worldly wisdom out with the trash, and simply read all of the Bible. It's in there.
Simplifying a complex spiritual experience has been the trademark of easy believers for 150 years. What YOU don't understand thar DR. Stanley does, is that one can talk all he wishes about possessing the Spirit of God, but it means nothing at all unless you are POSSESSED by that Spirit to bear fruit which Jesus said His followers would have.
To quote a man who actually knew Jesus in the flesh, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" Here, you would tell the brother of Jesus, "yes."
"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith BY ITSELF, if not accompanied by action,-----is dead."
"But someone will say, 'you have faith; I have deeds.'"
"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:14-18
Now all of you faith only folks are welcome to faith without fruit, to Heaven without helping, to conviction without commitment, but you will never find the great joy of Christ working through you which can only be done NOT when YOU possess the Holy Spirit, but when HE possesses you. It's not for me to judge whether one has salvation, but you know you have it when you will continue working to make a difference in the lives of others whether or NOT God grants "Heaven" to anyone, even yourself. Heaven is no longer the goal, service to the Master is.
Simplifying a complex spiritual experience has been the trademark of easy believers for 150 years. What YOU don't understand thar DR. Stanley does, is that one can talk all he wishes about possessing the Spirit of God, but it means nothing at all unless you are POSSESSED by that Spirit to bear fruit which Jesus said His followers would have.
To quote a man who actually knew Jesus in the flesh, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" Here, you would tell the brother of Jesus, "yes."
"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith BY ITSELF, if not accompanied by action,-----is dead."
"But someone will say, 'you have faith; I have deeds.'"
"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:14-18
Now all of you faith only folks are welcome to faith without fruit, to Heaven without helping, to conviction without commitment, but you will never find the great joy of Christ working through you which can only be done NOT when YOU possess the Holy Spirit, but when HE possesses you. It's not for me to judge whether one has salvation, but you know you have it when you will continue working to make a difference in the lives of others whether or NOT God grants "Heaven" to anyone, even yourself. Heaven is no longer the goal, service to the Master is.
Now that is true faith in Jesus.
There is no such thing as true faith versus false faith. Either you have faith or you don't.
When James says in James 2:17 that faith without works is dead (nekra), he is not saying that it is a false faith, he is saying that faith without works is useless - idle - lazy (argē) as per James 2:20. The 'dead' faith of James 2:17 is the idle faith of James 2:20. The believer who is eternally saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, has an idle faith if he is only a hearer of the word and not a doer of the word (James 1:23,25).
You error in assuming that just because a believer understands that eternal life is a free gift he automatically does not want to have a spiritually productive life.
James was not referring to eternal salvation when he asked if faith without works can save you. He was writing to believers. To people who already possessed eternal life. The reference to being saved has different connotations and does not always refer to eternal salvation. James' whole point is that to be saved from having a non-productive or idle spiritual life the eternally saved believer must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of the word. A person is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. But after salvation, if he is to have a spiritual life which has dynamics he has to put his faith to work. Maybe he will, and maybe he won't. But whether he does or not he still has been eternally saved simply by having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Simplifying a complex spiritual experience has been the trademark of easy believers for 150 years. What YOU don't understand thar DR. Stanley does, is that one can talk all he wishes about possessing the Spirit of God, but it means nothing at all unless you are POSSESSED by that Spirit to bear fruit which Jesus said His followers would have.
To quote a man who actually knew Jesus in the flesh, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" Here, you would tell the brother of Jesus, "yes."
"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith BY ITSELF, if not accompanied by action,-----is dead."
"But someone will say, 'you have faith; I have deeds.'"
"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:14-18
Now all of you faith only folks are welcome to faith without fruit, to Heaven without helping, to conviction without commitment, but you will never find the great joy of Christ working through you which can only be done NOT when YOU possess the Holy Spirit, but when HE possesses you. It's not for me to judge whether one has salvation, but you know you have it when you will continue working to make a difference in the lives of others whether or NOT God grants "Heaven" to anyone, even yourself. Heaven is no longer the goal, service to the Master is.
Now that is true faith in Jesus.
Mile's response is on point. Nothing I need to add regarding James and his intent to his audience.
I highlighted two statements in red above, and paraphrased then below.
Possessing the Holy Spirit means nothing if you are not bearing fruit.
Possession of the Holy Spirit is the means by which we have our union with Christ and the Father. It is the foundation by which we use His righteousness to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
The joy of Christ does not occur when you are not working and He does not posses you.
I'm OK with this statement on its own - but it has nothing to do with one's status towards eternal life.
Regarding the blue above... works are not the issue. If you do not have a union with Christ, and you depend upon your own righteousness for entrance into the kingdom - you won't enter. His righteousness is absolutely necessary for anyone to enter the kingdom of heaven.
You can do works and good service all day. We still need Christ's sinless account credited to our accounts. That only occurs when one possesses the Holy Spirit - and we possess the Holy Spirit upon God determining our faith in His Son to be sufficient.
But that Holy Spirit possession comes by Faith. God says that Love is the work of Faith. God says that those that don't love others don't know God. Therefore, the WORKS of Faith (which is LOVE) is a requirement to be saved for how can someone be saved that God says doesn't know Him.
When John said in 1 John 4:7-8 - 'Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.', he did not say that the one who does not love has not been born again, but only that he does not know God. While he says that everyone who loves is born of God and knows God, he says of those who do not love only that they do not know God. Not that they have not been born again.
No one knows God simply by virtue of having been born again. That is why the believer is commanded to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Again, as shown in Acts chapter 10 one is saved simply by believing the gospel. Cornelius and his household became born again even while Peter was still speaking the gospel to them. They simply believed what Peter was saying to them about Jesus and received Him as Savior.
John 6:40 - For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Yeah but lets understand that saving Faith includes its Work which is Love. This is supported in scripture:
We know that the work of Faith is Love:
Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
So surely someone must have Love to be saved. Therefore, the work of Faith one must have or they are evidence that even if they have Faith and not Love then they don't know God. So God is showing us that Love is a requirement of Salvation and Love is the work of Faith.
When John said in 1 John 4:7-8 - 'Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.', he did not say that the one who does not love has not been born again, but only that he does not know God. While he says that everyone who loves is born of God and knows God, he says of those who do not love only that they do not know God. Not that they have not been born again.
No one knows God simply by virtue of having been born again. That is why the believer is commanded to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Again, as shown in Acts chapter 10 one is saved simply by believing the gospel. Cornelius and his household became born again even while Peter was still speaking the gospel to them. They simply believed what Peter was saying to them about Jesus and received Him as Savior.
Are you of the belief that one that doesn't know God can be in a saved state? For obviously the scriptures refute that. The scriptures show that Love is the works of Faith and to know God is to have Love (the works of Faith).
Yeah but lets understand that saving Faith includes its Work which is Love. This is supported in scripture:
We know that the work of Faith is Love:
Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
So surely someone must have Love to be saved. Therefore, the work of Faith one must have or they are evidence that even if they have Faith and not Love then they don't know God. So God is showing us that Love is a requirement of Salvation and Love is the work of Faith.
No. Saving faith is whatever God determines to be that results in Him sending the Holy Spirit to the new believer. Acts 10 - God sent the Holy Spirit to Cornelius based on his belief in Peter's gospel message. He didn't DO anything.
Possession of the Holy Spirit - that's what gets a person linked to Christ, and into the kingdom of heaven.
No. Saving faith is whatever God determines to be that results in Him sending the Holy Spirit to the new believer. Acts 10 - God sent the Holy Spirit to Cornelius based on his belief in Peter's gospel message. He didn't DO anything.
Possession of the Holy Spirit - that's what gets a person linked to Christ, and into the kingdom of heaven.
Possession of the Holy Spirit includes the Love of God. Meaning when you have the Spirit of Christ you have the Works of Christ which is the works of Faith which is Love.
When John said in 1 John 4:7-8 - 'Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.', he did not say that the one who does not love has not been born again, but only that he does not know God. While he says that everyone who loves is born of God and knows God, he says of those who do not love only that they do not know God. Not that they have not been born again.
No one knows God simply by virtue of having been born again. That is why the believer is commanded to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Again, as shown in Acts chapter 10 one is saved simply by believing the gospel. Cornelius and his household became born again even while Peter was still speaking the gospel to them. They simply believed what Peter was saying to them about Jesus and received Him as Savior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Are you of the belief that one that doesn't know God can be in a saved state? For obviously the scriptures refute that. The scriptures show that Love is the works of Faith and to know God is to have Love (the works of Faith).
I already answered your question in the post to which you are now replying and which in fact refutes your claim. Knowledge of God and love for God are things which result from study of the Word of God and spiritual growth. Love for God is not a requirement for receiving the free gift of eternal life. You do not have to do anything to receive a free gift. You don't earn a free gift by working for it. You simply trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross to take possession of the gift which is being offered to you.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-23-2014 at 10:12 AM..
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