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That verse has nothing to do with creation. He is not the firstborn IN all creation. Once again
Ephraim, in the Old Testament, is referred to as the Lord's "firstborn" even though Manasseh was born first. In similar fashion David is appointed the Lord's "firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth," and this is despite the fact that he's the youngest of Jesse's sons. Neither Ephraim nor David was the first one born in the family, but they were firstborn in the sense of preeminence or "prime position."
On the flip side. Jesus never said, He is not God. You would think He would have made that clear considering all the trouble God went to by sending Michael to claim Moses body so as to hide it from the Jews for fear they would worship it.
When it is clearly stated that the relationship between God the Father and Jesus being his Son - a father always exists before the son - the son is not existing along with the father, when Jesus said he was the son of God he meant that he was the son of God not God the Son.
This has been said before and nobody has really answered it.
When Jesus says that just like he and his Father are one, he prays that his disciples will be one with him - does that make us Christ - the answer is NO, so when Jesus is one with the Father does that make him God - NO it makes him the Son of God - when we are born of the Spirit through Christ we are sons/daughters of God as well.
I KNOW!
I agree with you, at first glance it really didn't seem Jesus was stating, "He was God" but did you read the Jews reaction in that verse, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God”
YET JESUS NEVER CORRECTED THEM
On the flip side. Jesus never said, He is not God. You would think He would have made that clear considering all the trouble God went to by sending Michael to claim Moses body so as to hide it from the Jews for fear they would worship it.
I think speaking to his father and praying to him on numerous occasions is proof enough that he did not claim equality with God. He didnt expect to be prayed to, for one thing. And there is no record that anyone ever prayed to Christ. Does that mean that while he was here on earth, no one prayed? And if they did pray, to whom did they pray? They prayed to the one he prayed to, the one ruling in heaven, right?
It's far too confusing an idea for anyone to grasp. I really don't think anyone does. And the funniest thing is that when people try to explain it to you, as on this thread, they're responses are rarely in sync. Half of the people who say they believe the trinity, don't really believe it. They believe in unity, oneness of purpose. The same thing that I believe and the idea that I feel the bible truly expresses.
When it is clearly stated that the relationship between God the Father and Jesus being his Son - a father always exists before the son - the son is not existing along with the father, when Jesus said he was the son of God he meant that he was the son of God not God the Son.
you used "First Born" to prove your point and I showed you first born in a different context.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God, no argument there-co-existent, co-eternal
Do you have a verse to support "father comes before the son and the rest of what you wrote"?
you used "First Born" to prove your point and I showed you first born in a different context.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God, no argument there-co-existent, co-eternal
Do you have a verse to support "father comes before the son and the rest of what you wrote"?
born still means beginning, even if firstborn was used in a different context when it came to Manasseh. One can't be 'born' and 'from everlasting to everlasting' at the same time.
I think speaking to his father and praying to him on numerous occasions is proof enough that he did not claim equality with God. He didnt expect to be prayed to, for one thing. And there is no record that anyone ever prayed to Christ. Does that mean that while he was here on earth, no one prayed? And if they did pray, to whom did they pray? They prayed to the one he prayed to, the one ruling in heaven, right?
There is no problem with the Son as God praying or talking to the Father as God. As mentioned, they had an eternal relationship before Christ took upon Himself humanity. In His humanity, this relationship is depicted in the Gospels so we can see how the Son of God in His humanity carried out His Father's will so redemption could be won for all. Christ’s continual submission to His heavenly Father was empowered and kept focused through His prayer life. Christ’s example of prayer is left for us to follow.
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It's far too confusing an idea for anyone to grasp. I really don't think anyone does. And the funniest thing is that when people try to explain it to you, as on this thread, they're responses are rarely in sync. Half of the people who say they believe the trinity, don't really believe it. They believe in unity, oneness of purpose. The same thing that I believe and the idea that I feel the bible truly expresses.
The people in here who can't really agree on pretty much anything even if Jesus is the ONLY way, not a good example to go by.
That's why He is God
I agree with you, at first glance it really didn't seem Jesus was stating, "He was God" but did you read the Jews reaction in that verse, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God”
YET JESUS NEVER CORRECTED THEM
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
He then told them he was the son of God - not God the Son
born still means beginning, even if firstborn was used in a different context when it came to Manasseh. One can't be 'born' and 'from everlasting to everlasting' at the same time.
I proved from Ephraim and David's example your context of a finite status is wrong
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
He then told them he was the son of God - not God the Son
Where are you so hung up on "God the Son", I believe Jesus to be the Son of God. I am not catholic and he never told them He wasn't God and it wasn't once.
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
He then told them he was the son of God - not God the Son
Yes. He did the works of the Father, was sanctified by the Father, was sent by the Father.
If something is an image or representation of something, what does this mean? God bless.
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