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I'm the one who related the story. I'm not protesting now that someone repeats it. I am sorry that it was mis-heard and misunderstood.
The majority of people on this thread do NOT believe that God answers prayers of those who wish to AVOID sin. They have a one-sided view of God. The problem being they like their one-side so much that anything that smacks of anything else is anathema to them.
In effect, I've reached the conclusion that most universalist belief is simply a revival of the Marcion heresy. Marcion felt there were TWO Gods. The God of the Old Testament was really a god, but the lesser of the two. The God of the NT was the greater God, and with His teachings "overpowered" the lesser god. A sort of pantheistic position.
Everyone wants their god to be one thing or the other. The "all love" group have love as the only characteristic of god--or at least so overpowering a characteristic that the various expressions of God revealed through the OT AND the NT are trumped by the one characteristic to which they cling. And whoever doesn't believe God is ALL love, in their opinion, believe God hates all and condemns all despite the recurring revelation that the love of God is more than adequately displayed in that He offered His Son as a propitiation for the sins of the world. That sacrifice is no longer a sacrifice--it is an "example."
On the other hand, the vast majority who believe that God hates sin and sinners tend to use the fact to justify their own condemnation of this sin or that one--always carefully picking the sin they condemn or classifying them into a point system as in, for example, HOMOSEXUALITY is a ten and GLUTTONY is a one. This is an equally damning heresy as we are commanded not to judge people's hearts--that is reserved to God.
The experience I related was a moment where I discovered the innermost part of my heart. But I also discovered that I was REALLY a Christian. Because no Christian can purposefully sin without tremendous inner conflict. And that was a moment when I prayed harder than I ever have in my entire life. For some to tell me that God did not answer my prayer (of course in a way that I never intended) is to say that praying to avoid sin is a waste of effort--especially if the answer doesn't arrive in a package that is acceptable to us.
I'm afraid that is what Jesus Christ is to the almost everyone on this thread. What knowledge we have of Him comes ONLY from the scripture--flawed as they may be. But it is too difficult for us to comprehend, so we begin to condense His life down into an easy to swallow version that makes us feel better about ourselves--whether that is "God loves EVERYBODY," or "Thank God, I'm not like that sinner over there."
Wow. You must really have your head buried deep in the sand if you honestly think that, "The majority of people on this thread do NOT believe that God answers prayers of those who wish to AVOID sin". You are obviously hearing what you want/need to hear in order to maintain your prejudice against the idea that God loves us all.
And, once again, your understanding of what love is seems to be very shallow, and one-dimensional. You appear to have no concept of the power of love to effect transformation in people. It seems you think that only God's supposed hate can bring about change?
I understand your reasons and no longer wish to debate them with you. We are not Marcionists. We simply can NOT reconcile the barbaric and savage beliefs about God that you accept . . . with Christ's unambiguous revelation about God's true nature. There are not two Gods . . . just two different beliefs ABOUT God and we choose Christ's. You have found a way to reconcile all that savage barbarity with Christ's revelations. We have not. I mean no offense ever, brother. I just disagree with the picture of God you hold in your head. My picture is of a loving Father with NONE of the human weaknesses. Peace.
Warden, I don't believe in 2 Gods. There is only One and we are told in the inspired scriptures that God is love. He is also just, holy, righteous, kind, compassionate, merciful. He is lovely in all of His ways, even when He disciplines us. I have yet to see any scripture that tells me that He is hate. The love of God causes us to want to turn away from a life sin, to be the people of God.
God is opposed to sin and He sent His Son Jesus, out of His love for us, to free us from its captivity. We are not to embrace sin or be lovers of sin.I do believe that Jesus died for our sins and that believers are to walk in a new life. Believers are being transformed into God's image and this includes turning away from a life of sin, as has been shared.
I do not that believe that He literally hates anyone. You see, God is the One who has shut up all in disobedience, so why would He literally hate anyone? Yes, the Biblical language uses a word that has been translated as "hate" in our language, but as we have shown, it would be beneficial to see how the language was used in the original languages of the scriptures.
I have tried to share what I believe and it has nothing to do with what you stated, except that yes, God does love everybody!!
God bless
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-31-2014 at 09:47 AM..
two threads, and over half of them filled with nothing but the hate of God for sinners. So if the Gospel is not about the hate God has for sinners what in the world are you guys teaching it for?
Because it's called Law and Gospel.
The basic lie of Satan (which is in the form of a question) still continues ..... "Did God really say Law and Gospel ?"
Satan's alternative answer is 'no' and it's devilish in both ways:
A) 'no, God really said Lawand Guilt' .... which lead people to all sorts of conclusions (including suicide)
or the other extreme is
B) 'no, God really said Love and Gospel ... which leads people to all sorts of other conclusions (including UR)
The more seductive and appealing answer Satan puts out to humanity is "B" ... as you can read for yourself.
Before there was any sin \ sinner \death in the world, God proclaimed the law .. "If you eat of it, you will surely die".
And we know that God didn't just mean physical death because Satan is a spirit and those who die spiritually will be assigned to the place designed for Satan and his demons.
Last edited by twin.spin; 07-31-2014 at 10:02 AM..
The experience I related was a moment where I discovered the innermost part of my heart. But I also discovered that I was REALLY a Christian. Because no Christian can purposefully sin without tremendous inner conflict. And that was a moment when I prayed harder than I ever have in my entire life. For some to tell me that God did not answer my prayer (of course in a way that I never intended) is to say that praying to avoid sin is a waste of effort--especially if the answer doesn't arrive in a package that is acceptable to us.
Hmmm..... So God answers your prayer.... by taking the life of a woman? Do you suppose anyone was praying for that woman? Like, "Dear God. Please bless my daughter today and take care of her while she drives and runs her errands."
I pray for the safety of my family and friends every day. The thought that God is up there saying, "Nope! Someone else was sinning and in prayer so I'm answering his prayer, not your's, and your family member dies today" is so bizarre I can barely comprehend it. Sorry. I know you're entrenched in your belief, but I think you've built yourself a narrative to suit what you believe. Which is something we all do so God will fit in with our version of Him. As is evidenced by the never-ending arguments on this thread.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 07-31-2014 at 11:03 AM..
Hmmm..... So God answers your prayer.... by taking the life of a woman? Do you suppose anyone was praying for that woman? Like, "Dear God. Please bless my daughter today and take care of her while she drives and runs her errands."
I pray for the safety of my family and friends every day. The thought that God is up there saying, "Nope! Someone else was sinning and in prayer so I'm answering his prayer and your family member dies today" is so bizarre I can barely comprehend someone would believe it. Sorry.
Agreed.
Warden, you're not that special. God isn't going to punish a whole family and satellite of friends and acquaintances in order to teach YOU a lesson.
Time to doff that hair shirt, stop scourging and begin healing.
Demonstrate your love for your God, your family and your deceased SIL by honouring the life you were given. Lose weight via TD's Guaranteed 4-Word Formula (which he doesn't follow very well himself but this isn't about him is it?): Eat less. Move more.
Consider it penance if it'll help you forgive yourself.
You have already helped and inspired many via your posts here on CD. When you feel better - emotionally, physically and spiritually - you'll be a formidable force for Good, indeed.
I understand your reasons and no longer wish to debate them with you. We are not Marcionists. We simply can NOT reconcile the barbaric and savage beliefs about God that you accept . . . with Christ's unambiguous revelation about God's true nature. There are not two Gods . . . just two different beliefs ABOUT God and we choose Christ's. You have found a way to reconcile all that savage barbarity with Christ's revelations. We have not. I mean no offense ever, brother. I just disagree with the picture of God you hold in your head. My picture is of a loving Father with NONE of the human weaknesses. Peace.
Decide for yourself what you are.
Marcion's Theology:
When Marcion was in Rome, he heard the parable of the new wine and the wineskins taught by the priests. He believed it was a parable that taught the worthlessness of the Old Testament and its God and the value of the New Testament and its god. This was the beginning of the church excommunicating him. It was from here that Marcion’s heresy began. Three of Marcion’s major doctrinal differences with Christianity is his belief in Dualism, Doceticism and his exaggerated Paulinism. Dualism is a belief that there are two equal forces in this world:good
and evil.
Marcion saw this tension between the Old Testament and the New Testament. It seemed to Marcion that the Old Testament’s God was a vengeful, jealous God who would tell His people to destroy an entire race, demanded a bloody sacrificial system and severely punished those who were disobedient to Him.
The other god was the Supreme god. This god brought Christ to man. This was a god who taught to “love your neighbor” rather than “an eye for an eye.” In Marcion’s eyes, this god was the only one that could be god. As stated earlier, this dualism affected the shape of Marcion’s canon. The main emphasis of his canon was twofold. First, it completely did away with the Old Testament. Second it emphasized Paul.
--------------- Marcion’s atrocious handling of the Old Testament “impelled Christians to study the relationship between the Old and the New Testament” The patristics were forced to find the connection between the Old and New Testaments to refute Marcion. The church would do well to do the same today. Finally, Marcion’s folly has taught theologians how not to study
the Old Testament. Marcion greatly influenced his world and those influences still have an impact today. http://www.deuteronomy28.org/marcion1.html
So, basically, Marcion was teaching that the perceptions reported in the Old Testament about God were erroneous and the established Church vilified him? Sounds like par for the course. Was this the beginning of the hoop jumping contest now known as "Systematic Theology?"
If Jesus Christ's teachings on the sermon on the mount are not based upon love, i do not know what is, and if we are doing what we are taught(which to anyone who is enlightened by the glorious gospel are learning to be what they have been taught), we are learning to love God with all our heart soul mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. How else could you love God any higher than loving your neighbor as yourself.
That is right you scoffers the 2 greatest commandments are love based(not sin based, or right belief based), for love IS of God and everyone that loves is born of God, for God IS love, and one is worthless without the other, for both confirm each other. If you love the Lord your God with all of your heart soul mind and strength you love your neighbor as yourself and vice versa.
When Marcion was in Rome, he heard the parable of the new wine and the wineskins taught by the priests. He believed it was a parable that taught the worthlessness of the Old Testament and its God and the value of the New Testament and its god. This was the beginning of the church excommunicating him. It was from here that Marcion’s heresy began. Three of Marcion’s major doctrinal differences with Christianity is his belief in Dualism, Doceticism and his exaggerated Paulinism. Dualism is a belief that there are two equal forces in this world:good
and evil.
Marcion saw this tension between the Old Testament and the New Testament. It seemed to Marcion that the Old Testament’s God was a vengeful, jealous God who would tell His people to destroy an entire race, demanded a bloody sacrificial system and severely punished those who were disobedient to Him.
The other god was the Supreme god. This god brought Christ to man. This was a god who taught to “love your neighbor” rather than “an eye for an eye.” In Marcion’s eyes, this god was the only one that could be god. As stated earlier, this dualism affected the shape of Marcion’s canon. The main emphasis of his canon was twofold. First, it completely did away with the Old Testament. Second it emphasized Paul.
--------------- Marcion’s atrocious handling of the Old Testament “impelled Christians to study the relationship between the Old and the New Testament” The patristics were forced to find the connection between the Old and New Testaments to refute Marcion. The church would do well to do the same today. Finally, Marcion’s folly has taught theologians how not to study
the Old Testament. Marcion greatly influenced his world and those influences still have an impact today. Marcion Of Sinope
Sound like anyone you know, MysticPhD?
I have no issue personally with OT scriptures, in saying that i would not accept because someone says God told us to do this that and the other that it is true that it was God leading them to do it, back then yes i would have no problem attributing atrocities to God because that is the way they believed, but through the ages Light as dawned upon us and we have grew out such ignorant beliefs( well some of us). I also believe the NT is hidden within the old and the old is made manifest in the new. If Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and to the ages, and the only 2 ways we can witness to this truth is by the accounts in the gospels and Christ within, where are the similarities of Jesus Christ in the new and old testament writings ?.
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