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One of the biggest problems in determining what scripture means, is in trying to figure out what scripture someone means when they are saying "inspired, inerrant, and/or infallible.
Most of us are applying these words to English translations. And there are literally NO English translations that convey the meaning from either Greek or Hebrew in an adequate fashion.
From a post of about a year ago, a student of languages and ancient documents (Clear Lens) reported this:
Post #37 on the thread Has Anyone Ever Heard Of The Recovery Version Of The New Testament?
So which Bible are you claiming is inspired, inerrant, and/or infallible. The one YOU are reading? Or the one I am reading? Are you a KJV only kind of person?
This is part of the problem with blanket statements about scripture. It is completely inundated with bias of the original authors/copyists (well-meaning or not)/and translators.
I have used that analogy many times warden, asking which bible is the inerrant, infallible bible, is the Ethiopian bible inerrant and infallible? as the Ethiopian bible has the book of Enoch in it. no one bothers to answer the question.
3. Therefore, there is no journey to Bethlehem and manger story.
Yep, as they did so when poor an then went to a house and after better than a year the magi came.
RESPONSE:
As residents of Galilee and not Judea, Joseph and Mary were not included in a census of Judea (a different province). Hence, there was no need to travel to Bethlehem of Judea to register.
4. Matthew claims a Slaughter of the Innocent and a Flight into Egypt.
That occurred in 1 BC and they fled and did not come back until Herod was dead, and the gold, etc provided the funds for the trip.
RESPONSE:
Thank you for admitting that Matthew claimed Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod (but you have given no evidence for 1 B.C.)
Luke reports no such slaughter of the Innocent. Nor does Josephus, the Jewish historian of this period, nor does any other historian of that time. This was Matthew’s yarn.
4. But Luke's error here is that he overlooked the fact that Joseph and Mary were residents of Nazareth.
Nope that occurred after their return to Palestine, when they went back to their "original" home, where Joseph was a carpenter.
RESPONSE:
Mary and Joseph were residents of Galilee. And there is no evidence that they ever left Palestine, except for Matthew's yarn.
Luke 2:26 “26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary."
Luke 2:39 When they had finished everything required by the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth.[NB 50 days after birth for a male child]
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 09-22-2014 at 07:21 AM..
Reason: typo
The behavior and attitude of Christians I know tells me that something is wrong with their faith.
Yes, it's the end times and all things are being tested.
"False Doctrine' is in fall out mode.
As all things that can be shaken are...
"Now if one builds on the foundation of Jesus Christ with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw; each one's work will become manifest for The Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work of what sort it is." - 1Cor.3:1-13
OK you are right on that point. However it has no impact on what happened in both districts.
RESPONSE
Of course it does. Quirinius conducted the first Roman census of Judea in 6 AD (not Galilee) after Herod’s son and inheritor of Judea (Archelaus) had been exiled by Rome. Obviously, Herod had been dead for a decade if Jesus was born in 6AD So the Slaughter of the Innocent story and the Trip into Egypt story are chronically impossible if Luke and Josephus are correct.
Galilee remained under the control of one of Herod's other sons (Antipas) until 37 AD. Qurinius' census was of Judea, not Galilee.
Right and it occurred in his SECOND term there and fits the data.
RESPONSE:
Quirinius had no second term. (Do you have any evidence otherwise)? Quirinius was Governor of Syria only once. Maybe you are confusing him with Quintilius Varus
– 7/6 BC Gaius Sentius Saturninus
7/6 – 4 BC Publius Quinctilius Varus
4 – 1 BC Unknown[1]
1 BC – 4 AD Gaius Julius Caesar Vipsanianus
4 – 5 Lucius Volusius Saturninus
6 – 12 Publius Sulpicius Quirinius
12 – 17 Quintus Caecilius Metellus Creticus Silanus
1. Note 1 Some consider that Lucius Calpurnius Piso "the Pontifex" was here the governor of Syria. This is based on an inscription called the Lapis Tiburtinus.
But the issue is who the governor of Syria was who was given jurisdiction over and conducted the Roman census of Judea.
[/color]
You just do not have enough knowledge of history or are reading biased web sites for information.
RESPONSE:
On the contrary, as readers can see I have documented that I am both scripturally and historically correct. You should document your claims with precise citations not your opinions.
Thus at least one of these accounts (if not both) is a ERROR, UNINSPIRED (by God), and very FALLIBLE.
Nope, but your sources are fallible.
RESPONSE:Yes. Scripture I have been quoting is quite contradictoryand thus fallible, isn't it, as I have evidenced.
In conclusion, I have established that Matthew’s and Luke’s Nativity Narratives contradict each other. Only one (or neither) are correct. So only one (or neither) are divinely inspired.
Thu,s unless you want to claim that God made errors in his inspiration, one or both writings are the work of men, not God.
As to the title of the thread; "BIBLE: Inspired, Inerrant, Infallible ??" The answer is 'No" as has been demonstrated.
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 09-22-2014 at 10:23 AM..
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,934,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Well, since you like credentials, I, too have taught Sunday School, I've stood in perhaps three dozen different pulpits both here and in foreign lands, took 21 hours of Bible courses during my undergraduate courses and had an earth-shattering experience in meeting Christ as my Savior. I served as a senior executive in a Baptist affiliated college, too.
21 hours? Well... THAT should give you an indepth knowledge.
Please, I took more than 21 hours in comparative religion in the first month of the first course in the semester.
21 hours! Too funny!
21 hours? Well... THAT should give you an indepth knowledge.
Please, I took more than 21 hours in comparative religion in the first month of the first course in the semester.
21 hours! Too funny!
Let me make it funnier for you. My very first course of NT in a conservative Southern Baptist College introduced me to textual criticism and that began my eye-opening journey from fundamentalist to "liberal." And I fought it through most of the course, telling our demanding professor two weeks after I started his course that I didn't believe 90% of what he was teaching, but I would learn it better than anyone else in the class. To which he replied, "Well, son, there's still hope for you then." I did, and his words were prophetic.
Nowadays, the kind of intelligent, liberal professor under whose tutelage I learned is completely banned from all SBC campuses--an example of how the rightwing has managed to purge the thought-producers from the college ranks.
I did take a couple of courses from a very nice, likeable OT professor as well. Opening the book wasn't even necessary to pass his tests. It was all stuff I'd heard in a dozen different Sunday Schools. By then I was looking for meat instead of milk.
And that liberal professor whom I came to love? He was warned by the administration to ease up on his scholastic demands as frequently only about 60% passed the required NT class on the first try. I know, a number of years later I served for a year as the development vice-president and he was still there--and still getting warned!
Last edited by Wardendresden; 09-22-2014 at 12:13 PM..
Inspired: I believe it is mostly by faith but a fair amount of reason. Based upon what I know of its history, I believe it is probably what God wanted us to have even if we still can't decide how to properly understand it and the understanding/relevancy of certain verses may change over time.
Inerrant: Maybe by some very liberal definition of the word but not a very honest one
Infallible: Maybe by some very liberal definition of the word but not a very honest one
Last edited by Jrhockney; 09-22-2014 at 12:40 PM..
RESPONSE:Yes. Scripture I have been quoting is quite contradictoryand thus fallible, isn't it, as I have evidenced.
Thus unless you want to claim that God made errors in his inspiration, one or both writings are the work of men, not God.
As to the title of the thread; "BIBLE: Inspired, Inerrant, Infallible ??" The answer is 'No" as has been demonstrated.
And the reason there are two separate stories is that the author in both Matthew and Luke had, by the time they began recording their tales, heard someone say the prophecy in the OT was about the messiah being born in Bethlehem. Both wanted to embolden the faith stories they were telling and had to get Jesus to Bethlehem in some way.
One chose a contraction of history (Quirinius) and the other just chose Jesus' family living in Bethlehem from the start and then fleeing Herod's purging. Luke was at least keeping some factual idea about taxing in the picture--I doubt he really had any idea of exactly when it took place. But in Matthew's situation it is interesting to note that for Herod, as brutal as he was, the killing of every baby under the age of two in a nearby village of Bethlehem was beyond imagination yet gets no mention in abiblical sources like Josephus.
I think they are both interesting stories when not conflated to make up a third apologetic story which is then elevated to the level of "holy" scripture as well. Which is what fundamentalist do in order to preserve a dead dogma.
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