Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Bible is not merely a man-made work. It is the Word of God and the word of truth. God used men to set down in writing His communicated message. And yes, for the believer in Jesus Christ to grow spiritually the Bible has to be studied under the filling of the Holy Spirit who is the true Mentor.
While there is much about God which cannot be understood, what God has chosen to reveal about Himself and about His plan of the ages can be understood at least to a degree and put into words, sometimes using language of accommodation - anthropopathisms and anthropomorpisms. Many of God's attributes are mentioned in the Bible. Because He has revealed it we know that God is sovereign, He is love, He is righteous and just, He is eternal and immutable, He is truth, He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is gracious. He is triune.
I'm not sure if anyone has made the claim that the Bible is God, but there are people who like to make the accusation of Bible idolatry against believers who know that the Bible is God's word.
Bible idolatry is very real. There are people who cannot separate the Bible from God in their minds. I've met them. I've seen them on this forum.
Now this is not to say that every person who believes the Bible is the infallible word of God indulges in this idolatry. It is simply a belief of some Christians' belief that not all Christians agree with, same as other points of doctrine that we won't all get the answer to until Judgment Day.
But sometimes the point of view of the Bible literalists is either black or white: That those of us who don't believe that the Bible is infallible and inerrant are just airily tossing the whole thing away. We who don't find the Bible inerrant agree with your words I bolded above. Does that surprise you?
So-called fundamentalists sometimes delight to sneer and disparage the branch of Christianity to which I belong--the Episcopal Church. Unlike some other denominations, we do not believe we are the "right" one or superior to others in any other way. We are just Christians who like our history and the ritual of the Eucharist that Jesus set forth. Of course, if we did it like Jesus, we'd all be lying on the floor eating our bread and wine, but hey, this is what it's morphed into. I chose this particular church well into my adulthood, and I believe I was led to it by the Holy Spirit.
However, one of the reasons I like my church is because more scripture is read during the service than I've ever heard in any other church I've ever attended, and the sermon is ALWAYS based on the scripture readings. The priest or rector has the challenge of finding a theme in the readings (OT, Psalm, non-Gospel NT, and a gospel reading) and providing a message to the congregation that they can take home and apply to their own lives.
So many churches pull up one or two verses out of context, and the pastor goes on and on over this nugget for 45 minutes, off into tangents, and in the end, the message really has little to do with what the intent of the Bible reading was. No context is given, no background on who wrote the scripture or why or what was going on at the time of the writings, etc. Just a verse or two and a long speech.
Obviously, we don't believe the Bible is "merely a man-made work". It is much more than that. But there is more to God than the tiny glimpse of Him that the Bible provides.
Mike 555 posted:
“As far as the term 'inspiration' is concerned, I always appeal to 2 Timothy 3:16.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;”
Perhaps you shouldn’t.
From : Deutero-Pauline Letters.htm
o A pseudepigraphic work is composed as if it were written by a person from the past (the “attributed author”), while the actual author was someone else (usually anonymous).
The attributed author is usually either a famous person from the remote past, or the actual author’s own teacher (after his death).
o The Pastoral Epistles (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus) were most likely written late in the first century by some member(s) of the “Pauline School” who wanted to adapt his teachings to changing circumstances
Ehrman, Bart. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. Oxford University Press. 2003. p. 393ISBN 0-19-515462-2
"when we come to the Pastoral epistles, there is greater scholarly unanimity. These three letters are widely regarded by scholars as non-Pauline."
Collins, Raymond F. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus: A Commentary. Westminster John Knox Press. 2004. p. 4 ISBN 0-664-22247-1
"By the end of the twentieth century New Testament scholarship was virtually unanimous in affirming that the Pastoral Epistles were written some time after Paul's death. ... As always some scholars dissent from the consensus view."
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 09-20-2014 at 08:20 AM..
Reason: spacing problem
" 'Infallibility' means that the original autographs as written by the human writers of the Scriptures under the superintentance of the Holy Spirit are incapable of error and deception and therefore must be true. Since God is truth His word is incapable of being in error. Infallibility therefore implies inerrancy."
However, there are far to many extensive contradictions and errors in Christian scripture to maintain that they were only copyists' errors. The reasonable conclusion is that the Bible is the work of men, not God.
GINOLJC, to all
while reading some of the responses that have been posted, I see a pattering of misunderstanding. for example, the new testament, many I think, and this is only a suspicion, many I think, believe that the new testament is an invention of various apostles beliefs as to their interpretation of of the old testament scriptures. this is only a suspicion ok. again many think that the old testament scriptures is the only scriptures, as to Authority. I must say no. I believe the problem is in this misunderstanding, that the the old testament is only a shadow of the true testament which is the NEW TESTAMENT revealed by the holy apostles of Jesus Christ, God almighty. all of theses things revealed now, was “HIDDEN” in the old testament, and are now, revealed/understood by the holy apostles, and prophets. case in point about the Gentiles and Jews, supportive scripture, Ephesians 3:1 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power”. see, this knowledge was not known to men, or in our case ,the Jews. God locked up the Jews with the LAW. they have no boast, nor do we as Gentiles. both are under sin, both need the Saviour. this it what is called, the light have come. understand why is the old testament is called a shadow?. if one would look at their own shadow then we can understand. question, why do you and I have a shadow in the first place?. answer, because the source of light, (the sun), is far away. but if the Light source was closer, there will be no shadow, because the light would be diffuse all around us. example in the natural, then Spiritual. natural, this is what happen to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:3 "And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven”. here, using physical terms, the light came closer, till it was all around, NO SHADOW, now Spiritual, when one draw closer to God, (meaning studying, and listing to the Spirit), one get closer to God, meaning in understanding, and knowledge. take for example, the old testament shadow with the Gentiles, as given above in Ephesians 3:1. the Gentiles/mixed multitude came out of bondage with the Jews in Egypt. here is a classic understanding of the shadow, which the N.T. apostle brought to LIGHT about the Gentiles. see, God’s foreknowledge was written not in “ink”, but in the Spirit, even before the world began. so your old testament scriptures is not the first authority. the council of God is the first authority, before any LAW, and before any GRACE, so neither them (the Jews), nor us (the Gentiles), have anything to boast about, for or against the other, for we're all under sin. and the old testament scriptures is the first view, (from man’s point of view) the first view of this authority given to man, but was hidden in a mystery, until God, the Christ, the Messiah, or until Shiloh comes and “GATHER” his people, both Jews and Gentiles, and teach them. why do you think when our Lord came that he taught with such authority?. Listen, the bible give us the missing years, or so called missing years of our Lord Jesus right in the Old Testament scriptures, Isaiah 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back”. HOLD it, that’s old testament, now the New, Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne”. the Spirit taught that flesh and bone child. for the LAW of God is not on tables of stones, nor in ink but in Spirit. supportive scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:1 "Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart”. see, KJV, have “INK”, NIV have “INK”, YLT, have “INK”, now listen real good, the Tanakh, (the old testament) have “INK”. but what one needs is the, H O L Y S P I R I T, with your "INK", to live. for the Lord JESUS, God said I will write my Law on their hearts”, not with ink, NO. but with the Spirit. even if one have not the “INK”, (the Logos) with them they still can preach his Gospel.
so what is I’m saying?. the old as well as the new testament is NOTHING without the Spirit, God, Jesus the Christ. I don’t care is you’re an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, or whatever you may call yourself, you need the Spirit to open up the Letter, for the Letter is sealed, (see Revelation chapter 5:1 it takes God's wisdom to open his LETTER unto us. and that is in the Spirit. listen, to John's understanding when the wisdom of God was open to him, what happen?. answer, he was put in the Spirit immediately, (see Revelation 4:1 & 2). this door that was open was the Lord Jesus himself revealing himself to John, (see Revelation 1:1). the Lord Jesus is the “DOOR”, to our understanding. that’s why many don’t believe the bible today, because too many learned people open their OWN DOOR, and was blinded by the LIGHT. the Light, meaning the Lord Jesus, the WISDOM of God, he have made them blind guides. listen, when a door is open, it reveals what's on the other side. John was given the opportunity to see what was on the other side, (here the Spiritual side). listen, John had to come up hither, scripture, Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter”. John in this revelation had to be put in the Spirit, why?, because of the atmospheric condition of heavens is different from the atmospheric conditions here on earth. flesh and blood cannot come up hither where God is at. so John was in the Spirit. and while in heaven, (meaning, simply put, out of BODY experience), he saw everything that was revealed unto him to see. when one come to the throne room of God, where WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDING is at, then one want go away a fool. they will know that the “BIBLE”, or the little book that was in the hand of the one who sit on the throne is Inspired, is Inerrant, and is Infallibility. only a fool would say, there is no God. but one must “come up heather”. that’s the problem today, just as the Jews who wanted to make their own way, (self righteous), NO, God's way to be holy, is the only Way. just like John, yes John, when he was told John to take the book, and guess what?, the little book was already open, so there was no need to take it, just ask for it. listen, and understand, Matthew 11:11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent “take” it by force”. what is the meaning here, no need to be in ignorance, or in the SHADOW of God’s word, any longer, just ask, and it will be given. what was preached by the prophets of old is now revealed. his light is come, that shine out of darkness, or the book is open, or understood now. no more need to suffer ignorance/violence. people have taken the word of God and kill people with it. as with the Law of Sabbath. make, or kindle no fire, and they killed a man for it. the LETTER KILLITH, but the Spirit is LIFE. now, Light is come, no more shadow, our understanding should be “OPEN”, (as with the little book). this is what I was saying about the old testament, the Jews was shut up in the Law, a closed book, no understanding. a violence people of Laws, showing no mercy, (Thank you Lord Jesus for the Jews, a violent, and a sinful people, well..... just like us, but you showed the whole world their, and our sins, by them. for none is righteous, no not one). that’s what the will LAW do, show us our SIN. but now that the School master is come, (who is able to open the book). come away from under the LAW, and LIVE. listen, Revelation 10:8 "And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey”. what is the understanding here, “salvation is free”, receive ye the HOLY GHOST. not your way John, but God’s way, not in ignorance any longer, (which much can be discussed here). the NEW TESTAMEN scriptures show us that way. just like those stubborn Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, GOD, with a closed MIND, not believing, stiff necked, hard hearted, just like us today. notice, the eating of the book is the knowledge, the understanding, and the wisdom of God, hence open, all for the "ASKING". scripture, James 1:5 " If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord”. there is that receiving, and taking. there is no reason to take/be in ignorance any longer now, just ask and receive. “ask and it shall be given unto you”. “seek and ye shall find”, “knock and it shall be open unto you”. no ask, no knowledge, and wisdom. no seek, no find, no knocking, no opening. thank GOD for the NEW TESTAMENT. Thanks for the GREAT LIGHT. again, two more thing to show you, and I’ll quit, because I was told once before I make a long post, (smile). in Revelation chapter 12 there are two lights, the moon and the sun. the moon is a lesser light which create a greater shadow, (the LAW), scripture, Psalms 119:105 "NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”. just as the moon was at the woman feet, so is our understanding of Spiritual thing. Israel walked by a dim, or lesser light, which cast a greater shadow. but now a greater light have come, "Shiloh", the Christ, the messiah, as in Chapter 12, the Sun, at the woman head. a closer light, for your eyes to see, which is in your "head". that produce no shadow. the last one, just as the angel came down, (signifying to John, the coming down of the Holy Spirit, to open our understanding of his Word, the open book). take note, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. that’s the receiving of the GOSPEL which is the Gospel, of Christ, or the gospel of God. to them that believe, the LITTLE BOOK that is OPEN NOW. but to those who do not believe, scripture, 2 Corinthians 4:3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost”. but whosoever receive. Mark 9:36 "And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, 37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me”. those who do not receive, because of unbelief. John 3:25 "Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. 26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven”. that's the TAKING of the little book, "ASK". asking is literally a "DEMAND". that’s the reason why so many cannot believe now, because their minds are closed to the little book. just as our Lord Jesus own disciples was, until he OPEN their minds of understanding. the little book is OPEN NOW, NOW IS THE TIME OF SALVATION. and his holy apostle, prophets, and teachers, are “giving”, us this knowledge. but not all men have this knowledge. that’s why I teach “HOLY SPIRIT”, God in Flesh, the Christ. many teach “Father”, Son”, and then Holy Ghost. this is not the order , this is the spirit of ERROR. the correct order is, “HOLY GHOST", first, and only, with the titles “Father”, & “Son”.
one might want to re-read this post for more meat of the word.
The author of Timothy is the apostle Paul. 2 Timothy is the last of Paul's writings and is dated to around A.D.67. Paul regarded what he said and wrote to be the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13) as did Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16) who equated Paul's writings as being as authoritative as the rest of the Scriptures which was a reference to the Old Testament Scriptures. Therefore, not only did Paul have in mind the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Timothy 3:16, but also his own writings.
I was going to answer the OP...but Mike has done an admirable job explaining it. Great posts Mike.
Do you believe that the omnipotent, omniscient God makes mistakes?
The "pen" is influential, but it is not omnipotent or omniscient?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
