If a single act of homosexuality is abomination in God's eyes then same-sex marriage must be evil to the infinite power (organizations, cross)
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I'd really like to see a thoughtful reply from Jeffbase to Wardendresden's post #1153.
In all my time on CD, I've noticed that fundies seem to dismiss posts like this that are incredibly thoughtful. This is why I feel like discussing this subject with fundies is like beating a dead horse. They seem to be set in their beliefs and that is that. No amount of common sense, reason, and first hand proof could possibly sway their opinions. The concept of trying to walk in someone else's shoes, even for a moment, is entirely lost on them.
But yet when you label us as "fundies", you are automatically assigning pre-conceived notions to a group by assuming we all treat gay people poorly or hate them or we all ignorant and stupid. Yet Wandrendresden's post is steeped in personal ignorance. He doesn't know a thing about my personal life or how I interact with gay people in my daily walk. People on your side just seem incapable of understanding the difference between loving people but hating the sin.
In regards to our difference of opinions, I rather be wrong about the nature of sin than be wrong about homosexuality not being a sin. If Wardendresden is wrong then he is "loving" people by letting them walk off a cliff and not saying a word because he doesn't want to offend them. The bottom line is nothing in this realm matters more than your relationship with God. Not your family, not your spouse or partner. Our time here is brief compared to eternity.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,941,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
But yet when you label us as "fundies", you are automatically assigning pre-conceived notions to a group by assuming we all treat gay people poorly or hate them or we all ignorant and stupid. Yet Wandrendresden's post is steeped in personal ignorance. He doesn't know a thing about my personal life or how I interact with gay people in my daily walk. People on your side just seem incapable of understanding the difference between loving people but hating the sin.
In regards to our difference of opinions, I rather be wrong about the nature of sin than be wrong about homosexuality not being a sin. If Wardendresden is wrong then he is "loving" people by letting them walk off a cliff and not saying a word because he doesn't want to offend them. The bottom line is nothing in this realm matters more than your relationship with God. Not your family, not your spouse or partner. Our time here is brief compared to eternity.
Let's turn Pascal's wager around.
What if you're wrong? What if there really is no god, no afterlife and no eternity?
Would it then not be your duty to be the best person you can be here on earth while you are alive? Being inclusive, acting with kindness to all and not discriminating? Shouldn't your actions here on earth then be directed at people, rather than ideas?
What if you're wrong? What if there really is no god, no afterlife and no eternity?
Would it then not be your duty to be the best person you can be here on earth while you are alive? Being inclusive, acting with kindness to all and not discriminating? Shouldn't your actions here on earth then be directed at people, rather than ideas?
If there is no God or afterlife then it won't matter if you are the most beloved kind person in the world or a total jerk. Everyone meets the same fate, sudden non-existence. You can't extend your life either way, and if people write great songs about you, you don't exist anymore to witness them.
I would imagine if there is not God, I would want to make every day of breathe as enjoyable as possible. There really is no benefit in not being completely selfish in such a scenario.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,941,333 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If there is no God or afterlife then it won't matter if you are the most beloved kind person in the world or a total jerk. Everyone meets the same fate, sudden non-existence. You can't extend your life either way, and if people write great songs about you, you don't exist anymore to witness them.
I would imagine if there is not God, I would want to make every day of breathe as enjoyable as possible. There really is no benefit in not being completely selfish in such a scenario.
Being completely selfish means there will be a feedback mechanism called other people, who will react to that. And not pleasantly.
The best way to deal with life, whether you are religious or not is the following."If it feels good, do it. If it harms you or someone else, don't."
If you live by that mantra, you will cover all bases, including any your faith may require of you.
If there is no God or afterlife then it won't matter if you are the most beloved kind person in the world or a total jerk. Everyone meets the same fate, sudden non-existence. You can't extend your life either way, and if people write great songs about you, you don't exist anymore to witness them.
I would imagine if there is not God, I would want to make every day of breathe as enjoyable as possible. There really is no benefit in not being completely selfish in such a scenario.
It's a sad thing to say but guess religion is needed for some people if that's all that keeps them civil.
I'd be embarrassed to admit it but guess some aren't.
It's a sad thing to say but guess religion is needed for some people if that's all that keeps them civil.
I'd be embarrassed to admit it but guess some aren't.
Then you are saying we are born with an internal sense of right and moral apart from religion. But that doesn't work either if I am to believe in your atheist world. Apart from God, any action of morality has a degree of selfishness at the core. Would an atheist really be willing to help other people if those people constantly spat in their face and made them feel like crap? I doubt it, but as a Christian, you would show kindness regardless if it made you feel good or not.
I certainly don't see the moral conflicts with other animal species. Does a tiger contemplate the morality of sharing his kill with his hungry tiger mates before chowing down?
Fascinating that you would cherry-pick one study from 23 years ago and completely ignore all the rest since. Why is that?
Here's an interesting article by Dr Warren Throckmorton (a Christian Psychologist) on why so many Evangelical Christians are "quite unprepared to discuss this very current topic with the most recent and best scholarship."
Also even today many people believe alfred kinsey homosexuality studies are to be true with 10% of the population is homosexual, and yes I do remember seeing this in pro gay websites and gay organisations, yet recent studies have suggested this is not the case. A BBC article from 2010 states the homosexual population is significantly smaller than that and at 1% and 0.5% bisexual. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11398629
Then you are saying we are born with an internal sense of right and moral apart from religion. But that doesn't work either if I am to believe in your atheist world. Apart from God, any action of morality has a degree of selfishness at the core. Would an atheist really be willing to help other people if those people constantly spat in their face and made them feel like crap? I doubt it, but as a Christian, you would show kindness regardless if it made you feel good or not.
I certainly don't see the moral conflicts with other animal species. Does a tiger contemplate the morality of sharing his kill with his hungry tiger mates before chowing down?
All you have done with your version of religion is divide sinners into categories, even the Bible says "all sins are created equal." The only "good news" I see is that there aren't many members in the "JeffBasism." sect of Christianity.
If there is no God or afterlife then it won't matter if you are the most beloved kind person in the world or a total jerk. Everyone meets the same fate, sudden non-existence. You can't extend your life either way, and if people write great songs about you, you don't exist anymore to witness them.
I would imagine if there is not God, I would want to make every day of breathe as enjoyable as possible. There really is no benefit in not being completely selfish in such a scenario.
To really live for God is not to live for reward in heaven. It is to live in the fashion Jesus showed us, with the same kind of compassion, the same restraint from ugly words (except to the ultra-religious not practicing the life and love as Jesus demonstrated with His constant attack on their self-righteousness), and with the knowledge that YOU are not God's chosen to deliver judgment to on anyone else.
You have consistently claimed that Jesus is firmly against the "sin" of homosexuality. But you have been unable to demonstrate it. In fact, if you understood scripture correctly you would understand yourself to be a sodomite--not in the way you misunderstand that word through misapplication, but in the way OT prophets understood it.
The prophet Isaiah declared that Sodom was destroyed for lack of doing justice. (Isaiah 1:10; 3:9).
Jeremiah accused Sodomites of adultery, lying, and the unwillingness to repent (Jer. 23:14)
Ezekiel said that God was angry at Sodom because the people were proud, overly prosperous, and that they refused to aid the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16:49).
Each prophet adds a piece to the puzzle. The Sodomites were greedy, self-centered, and inhospitable. They were not interested in justice nor the poor. Any sexual encounter the people might have had in mind was to demean and dehumanize strangers---the very thing you are doing by calling homosexuals abominations. You are dehumanizing them, just as Hitler dehumanized the Jews.
Not one prophet mentioned homosexual intercourse or even homosexual rape, let alone homosexual orientation or intimacy among the reasons for God's wrath.
When Jesus spoke of Sodom it was in the context of sending out His disciples to do God's work in the world. "Whoever will not receive you," He said, "nor hear your words; when you depart, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom---in the day of judgment than for that city." (Matt 10:15)
Jesus' reference is perfectly clear. Every town that refused to welcome His disciples with appropriate hospitality , every village or city that was unwilling to treat them and their message with respect, would be judged as the people of Sodom were judged. To be inhospitable, greedy, self-centered, unconcerned for the needs of others, even strangers, leads directly to God's wrath. To be hospitable to strangers was to do justice and to show mercy, traits at the center of God's will for ALL people. Like the prophets, Jesus didn't mention homosexuality or homosexual acts when He spoke of Sodom.
So if your desire is for an after life with God, then you need to get your life right with all the people who exist around you---for what you are posting sounds like you are a biblical Sodomite--lacking in hospitability and unconcerned about how your words affect that small group of God-made homosexuals---not the made-up Sodomite of ungodly Christians.
Paul was Paul, creating a different religion from that of Jesus--and it is the one you are following. I think some of Paul's writings are quite good, but when he strays from the teaching of Jesus, then his writing must be called out--just like yours is being called out.
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