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Have you read Galatians yet and Paul's answer against the law keepers trying to get the Galatians to do the law?
I presume you are talking about Galatians 2. Paul is saying, as he says elsewhere especially Romans, is that it is not necessary for Gentiles to first convert to Judaism in order to be Jesus followers. Jewish law is not the path to salvation for Gentiles. (Circumcision was the big "you're gonna do WHAT???") Paul had gone to Jerusalem to get that worked out. It was decided that Paul would be the missionary to the Uncircumcised (Gentiles) and Peter to the Circumcised (Jews). But as we see in Galatians 1 there are those trying to roll back that agreement and insist on Jewish law for Gentiles in order to follow Jesus.
In any of the undisputed letters of Paul there is no indication that Jews are not required to follow Jewish law, only that Gentiles are not Jews and not bound by that law. But following Jewish law is not in itself sufficient.
I presume you are talking about Galatians 2. Paul is saying, as he says elsewhere especially Romans, is that it is not necessary for Gentiles to first convert to Judaism in order to be Jesus followers. Jewish law is not the path to salvation for Gentiles. (Circumcision was the big "you're gonna do WHAT???") Paul had gone to Jerusalem to get that worked out. It was decided that Paul would be the missionary to the Uncircumcised (Gentiles) and Peter to the Circumcised (Jews). But as we see in Galatians 1 there are those trying to roll back that agreement and insist on Jewish law for Gentiles in order to follow Jesus.
In any of the undisputed letters of Paul there is no indication that Jews are not required to follow Jewish law, only that Gentiles are not Jews and not bound by that law. But following Jewish law is not in itself sufficient.
Unless a Gentiles becomes a Jew...
While the issue was theoretically resolved, it continued to be a recurring issue among Christians. Four years after the Council of Jerusalem, Paul wrote to the Galatians about the issue, which had become a serious controversy in their region. There was a burgeoning movement of Judaizers in the area that advocated adherence to traditional Mosaic laws, including circumcision. According to McGrath, Paul identified James the Just as the motivating force behind the movement. Paul considered it a great threat to his doctrine of salvation through faith and addressed the issue with great detail in Galatians 3. - Circumcision controversy in early Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gen 17:7 `And I have established My covenant between Me and thee, and thy seed after thee, to their generations, for a covenant age-during, to become God to thee, and to thy seed after thee;
Gen 17:23 And Abraham taketh Ishmael his son, and all those born in his house, and all those bought with his money--every male among the men of Abraham's house--and circumciseth the flesh of their foreskin, in this self-same day, as God hath spoken with him.
Gen 17:24 And Abraham is a son of ninety and nine years in the flesh of his foreskin being circumcised;
Gen 17:25 and Ishmael his son is a son of thirteen years in the flesh of his foreskin being circumcised;
Gen 17:26 in this self-same day hath Abraham been circumcised, and Ishmael his son;
Gen 17:27 and all the men of his house--born in the house, and bought with money from the son of a stranger--have been circumcised with him.
It seems that this covenant is not only between HaShem and the Jews but also between HaShem and Ishmaelites...
I presume you are talking about Galatians 2. Paul is saying, as he says elsewhere especially Romans, is that it is not necessary for Gentiles to first convert to Judaism in order to be Jesus followers. Jewish law is not the path to salvation for Gentiles. (Circumcision was the big "you're gonna do WHAT???") Paul had gone to Jerusalem to get that worked out. It was decided that Paul would be the missionary to the Uncircumcised (Gentiles) and Peter to the Circumcised (Jews). But as we see in Galatians 1 there are those trying to roll back that agreement and insist on Jewish law for Gentiles in order to follow Jesus.
In any of the undisputed letters of Paul there is no indication that Jews are not required to follow Jewish law, only that Gentiles are not Jews and not bound by that law. But following Jewish law is not in itself sufficient.
How can a Jew today follow the law when there is no tabernacle? Are they taking their tithes to Jerusalem to the Levitical priesthood? Are they doing ALL the law? If not, they are under a curse.
I presume you are talking about Galatians 2. Paul is saying, as he says elsewhere especially Romans, is that it is not necessary for Gentiles to first convert to Judaism in order to be Jesus followers. Jewish law is not the path to salvation for Gentiles. (Circumcision was the big "you're gonna do WHAT???") Paul had gone to Jerusalem to get that worked out. It was decided that Paul would be the missionary to the Uncircumcised (Gentiles) and Peter to the Circumcised (Jews). But as we see in Galatians 1 there are those trying to roll back that agreement and insist on Jewish law for Gentiles in order to follow Jesus.
In any of the undisputed letters of Paul there is no indication that Jews are not required to follow Jewish law, only that Gentiles are not Jews and not bound by that law. But following Jewish law is not in itself sufficient.
So you believe something unspiritual "The letter" is a requirement to worship God in Spirit?
While the issue was theoretically resolved, it continued to be a recurring issue among Christians. Four years after the Council of Jerusalem, Paul wrote to the Galatians about the issue, which had become a serious controversy in their region. There was a burgeoning movement of Judaizers in the area that advocated adherence to traditional Mosaic laws, including circumcision. According to McGrath, Paul identified James the Just as the motivating force behind the movement. Paul considered it a great threat to his doctrine of salvation through faith and addressed the issue with great detail in Galatians 3. - Circumcision controversy in early Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gen 17:7 `And I have established My covenant between Me and thee, and thy seed after thee, to their generations, for a covenant age-during, to become God to thee, and to thy seed after thee;
Gen 17:23 And Abraham taketh Ishmael his son, and all those born in his house, and all those bought with his money--every male among the men of Abraham's house--and circumciseth the flesh of their foreskin, in this self-same day, as God hath spoken with him.
Gen 17:24 And Abraham is a son of ninety and nine years in the flesh of his foreskin being circumcised;
Gen 17:25 and Ishmael his son is a son of thirteen years in the flesh of his foreskin being circumcised;
Gen 17:26 in this self-same day hath Abraham been circumcised, and Ishmael his son;
Gen 17:27 and all the men of his house--born in the house, and bought with money from the son of a stranger--have been circumcised with him.
It seems that this covenant is not only between HaShem and the Jews but also between HaShem and Ishmaelites...
And let us not forget that Abraham was considered righteous by faith over 400 years prior to the law being given.
And let us not forget that Abraham was considered righteous by faith over 400 years prior to the law being given.
And the Jews as a People and Nation (though not every individual) rejected God and His Son and are rejected by them. They do not follow either today and God is not with those who reject Him and they still do. Claiming to love God and follow His old Law while rejecting His Son shows they do not truly worship or love God. Jesus shows that Israel as a Nation and People had been rejected by God (Matt 23:38), individuals who leave that rejected form of worship and become followers of Christ are welcomed into the new association/Nation as worshipers of God now.
When Jesus refered to the law as unchangeable, He was talking about the commandments and the other laws that had real spiritual significance to the well being of spirit and soul. He was not refering to the temporary and carnal ordinances/figures as Hebrews says.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Paul said that in order to win the Jews to Christ, he became as one under the law although really under Grace in order to feed them "milk" least he offend needlessly until they became of age/spiritually minded in Christ or in other words until they understood by the Spirit Himself that circumcision, various kinds of meats and other things had no real spiritual value. The spiritual elements of the law [love God and your neighbor] are to be kept. The Spirit of Life in Christ is the love needed to fully do this.
"Under the law" or "letter of the law" primarily means that one is showed what is expected but left to do it on their own if without Christ. Such was the state of man in O.T. times. They could, however, be justified by ongoing Faith and by looking forward in Faith to God's promise of the Savior. And those who did were helped by the Spirit but could not enter into the fullness until they died or were present when Christ poured out the fullness of Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
Christ didn't come to change/destroy the meat of the law including the need for physical rest which is differant for all now [we are not Theocracy] but rather to do away with the notion that you can keep His laws without Him, the lawgiver, the advocate for law breakers and the Power and the Gory to Live in Him and for Him. Without the Power ["born again" of the Spirit"] you remain under the law and without hope.
How can a Jew today follow the law when there is no tabernacle? Are they taking their tithes to Jerusalem to the Levitical priesthood? Are they doing ALL the law? If not, they are under a curse.
Paul was not above quoting out of context to support his points. (Sound familiar?) Below is the passage from which he quote mined v 26. It is about certain specific practical commands to not perform some particular genuinely sinful actions. It is not about the entire set of 613 mitzvot many of which are ritualistic and many others not appearing until after the Temple was built by Solomon. The context of the passage below is before the Israelites even crossed the Jordan. The text quoted below is from the Septuagint, which is what Paul would have used. However it is essentially identical to other translations derived from Hebrew sources.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 27 (Septuagint)
14 And the Levites shall answer and say to all Israel with a loud voice, 15 Cursed is the man whosoever shall make a graven or molten image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of craftsmen, and shall put it in a secret place: and all the people shall answer and say, So be it. 16 Cursed is the man that dishonours his father or his mother: and all the people shall say, So be it. 17 Cursed is he that removes his neighbour’s landmarks: and all the people shall say, So be it. 18 Cursed is he that makes the blind to wander in the way: and all the people shall say, So be it. 19 Cursed is every one that shall pervert the judgment of the stranger, and orphan, and widow: and all the people shall say, So be it. 20 Cursed is he that lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s skirt: and all the people shall say, So be it. 21 Cursed is he that lies with any beast: and all the people shall say, So be it. 22 Cursed is he that lies with his sister by his father or his mother: and all the people shall say, So be it. 23 Cursed is he that lies with his daughter-in-law: and all the people shall say, So be it. Cursed is he that lies with his wife’s sister: and all the people shall say, So be it. 24 Cursed is he that smites his neighbour secretly: and all the people shall say, So be it. 25 Cursed is he whosoever shall have taken a bribe to slay an innocent man: and all the people shall say, So be it. 26 Cursed is every man that continues not in all the words of this law to do them: and all the people shall say, So be it.
If it is impossible to perform a mitzvah then the mitzvah will not be performed. If reasonable substitutions are possible, they should be done instead. If one cannot have children, adoption or supporting a scholar or teaching children can be done. All mitzvot pertaining to Temple practices obviously cannot be performed. But Passover Seders continue without a sacrificed lamb. Mitzvot relating to farming simply cannot be performed by non-farmers. But instead of leaving the corner of one’s non-existent field for the poor, one can donate to charities for the poor. And almost all mitzvot can be disregarded if human life is at stake.
Jesus was Jewish but he disregarded the law when it was necessary. Was Paul implying Jesus was cursed?
And the Jews as a People and Nation (though not every individual) rejected God and His Son and are rejected by them. They do not follow either today and God is not with those who reject Him and they still do. Claiming to love God and follow His old Law while rejecting His Son shows they do not truly worship or love God. Jesus shows that Israel as a Nation and People had been rejected by God (Matt 23:38), individuals who leave that rejected form of worship and become followers of Christ are welcomed into the new association/Nation as worshipers of God now.
The Jews have historically been the only people who follow the ways of the Messiah.
For 2000 years they have been persecuted for keeping the worship system of the son of God.
If you want to learn about the son of God, where will you turn?
The Jews celebrate and know the days of Messiah, and if it was not for them, the knowledge of Messiah would now be lost.
In Revelation it says,'' There shall be 30 min of silence in heaven.''
I could speak about this to an unbelieving Jew who knows the comings and goings of the Temple, but can I speak about it with a Christian?
The Christian claims to believe in Christ, where the Jews actually follow the ways of Christ.
The Jews know the Messiah and the comings and goings of his temple with his Sabbaths and 7 feast days, and I could strike up a conversation about Shemini Atzereth or Simchat Torah with Jew who doesn't believe in Jesus, but will I have the same conversation with a Christian?
Saying and doing are two different things.
Saying that you know the Messiah, is not the same thing as actually knowing the Messiah and keeping his ways that are particular to God's peculiar people.
Knowing the Messiah is to know the laws, and the comings and goings of the Temple surrounding the 7 visitation days that God has appointed for his son.
The Jews know these things, it is very rare to find a Christian who also knows the Messiah in this way.
Strawman. I never said that. And The Word of God says the letter was done away with.
The letter was never meant to be worshipped and existed to bring us to Christ.
Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
In Hebrews we read that those that kept the LETTER could not be perfect. And that the Letter is called CARNAL!
If two people cannot make a decision to believe what Christ said, then how could the two continue a serious conversation?
If all of what you say contradicts Jesus, where do you go from there?
If Jesus spoke of the law as he did, it is written in stone to me.
''I did not come to abolish the laws.''
Your mentality says otherwise.
'' He who keeps even the least of the laws and teaches others to keep the laws will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.''
Everything you say looks to rationalize why Jesus was wrong.
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