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The traditional teaching among most of the Christian churches is that the entire bible is inspired by God. However, quite a number of contradictions and errors are apparent which apologists have been unsuccessful in explaining way.
In 1964, the Vatican II in its writing on scripture, Dei Verbum, included the following:
"In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted."
"Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels just named, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation until the day He was taken up into heaven."
This allows for exceptions. Thus can this be interpreted to mean that not everything in scripture is really inspired, but only those things necessary for salvation. So can everyone form their own opinion as to which parts of scripture are inspired and which are not?
The Catholic Church selected which books were inspired. Protestants believe the books selected themselves. If the books were selected by the Church then they are inspired.
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Athanasius (c. 296-373) is known as the "Father of Orthodoxy." In his lifetime, he struggled against Arianism.
Athanasius accompanied Bishop Alexander of Alexandria to the Council of Nicea in 325. Tradition says he played a significant role in the decisions at the council, but this may not be true because he was only a deacon. Without a doubt, Athanasius championed the Nicene formula for the rest of his lifetime and was recognized as a major authority on Christology.
When Alexander died in 328, Athanasius became bishop of Alexandria, a position he held for 45 years until his death. He found himself constantly embroiled in conflicts as he adhered to orthodoxy; he was exiled five times. He wrote literature on controversies related to the Arians, the Holy Spirit, and Christology. In his "Letters to Serapian," Athanasius became one of the first theologians to pay serious attention to the status of the Holy Spirit.
At Easter time each year, Athanasius sent a letter to the Egyptian churches. His 39thFestal Letter, written in 367, provides the oldest list of the 27 books of the New Testament canon that we have today.
As the heretics are quoting apocryphal writings, an evil which was rife even as early as when St. Luke wrote his gospel, therefore I have thought good to set forth clearly what books have been received by us through tradition as belonging to the Canon, and which we believe to be divine. For there are in all twenty-two books of the Old Testament. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. After this comes Joshua, and Judges, and Ruth. The four books of the Kings, counted as two. Then Chronicles, counted the two as one. Then First and Second Esdras [i.e. Ezra and Nehemiah]. After these Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Cantica. To these follow Job, and the Twelve Prophets, counted as one book. Then Isaiah, Jeremiah together with the Epistle of Baruch, the Lamentations, Ezekiel, and Daniel.
Of the New Testament these are the books [then follows the complete list ending with "the Apocalypse of John"]. These are the fountains of salvation, that whoso thirsteth, may be satisfied by the eloquence which is in them. In them alone (en toutois monois) is set forth the doctrine of piety. Let no one add to them, nor take aught therefrom.
I also add for further accuracy that there are certain other books, not edited in the Canon, but established by the Fathers, to be read by those who have just come to us and wish to be instructed in the doctrine of piety. The Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, the Doctrine (Didakh) of the Apostles and the Pastor. And let none of the Apocrypha of the heretics be read among you.
(An excerpt from from the XXXIX Festal Epistle of Athanasius, translated in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV (2d series, pp. 551 and 552.)
So you share an opinion with a few other liberals. So?
ETA: This is really just about politics with you, isn't it?
jimmie, listen to yourself. I've given you link after link, fact after fact, and you keep the blinders on. People are not being won to Christ by the false message of inerrancy and infallibility. They are being driven away. Because the message isn't good news--it's not even old news--it's not even news.
The God message has an attraction for people who are lost--and they are no longer hearing it from the evangelical Christianity. And believe me as an old man--the message being preached by evangelical churches today is a far, far cry from what was proclaimed 45-50 years ago. I grew up when evangelical churches were still expanding. When their message to those in the church was "work on your spiritual walk with God," and the message to the lost was, "there is a Savior who loved you enough to die for all your sins and wants you to be a part of His family. Come join us in our journey with the Lord."
Now the messages are all about how godless the nation is becoming and implies how godly the church attenders are.
The prophecy in the NT that evangelicals need to take to heart is that judgment will begin at the House of God. And He's going to want to know why these sour, dogmatic views of scripture were put forth to drive people away.
It isn't easy to let go of the anchor (idol) of scripture inerrancy. I had a long struggle with it through my college years. I spent a lot of prayer over it. Some people never recover from the shock of realizing that their "holy" book is simply a book written by a lot of writers trying to express their faith and understanding of God to other people. Their is nothing wrong with that. But it is wrong when preachers and teachers and then those who are taught begin saying everything God ever had to say is stuck between the pages of that book. God is dynamic and living and EVER-CHANGING to meet our needs as WE GROW UP individually, as churches, as societies. The Bible isn't even a tenth of the revelation of God for all of us.
I know you've heard preachers or others say--"that song or that sermon was a real inspiration." If it was an inspiration then it is just as inspirational as any word recorded in the Bible--maybe more so to some individuals if it makes a difference in their lives. God doesn't deal with "levels" of inspiration. If it comes from Him yesterday, today, or tomorrow it is every bit as holy as anything written two thousand years ago.
Do some people reject their faith when they get to college or seminary and learn about the JEDP theory with regard to the OT, or that an unknown author wrote 2nd Peter, or that Paul is not the author of all the letters ascribed to him, or that the last twelve verses of Mark 16 were additions that weren't in the earliest copies we have of that book? Yes, a few fall away. And the reason they fall away is because inerrantists aren't honest with young people. They try to play up each word as beyond question and when young people begin studying for themselves they find PLENTY to question. Their faith is not founded in the Son of God, it is founded in the Bible. And, unfortunately for too many, they are going to discover that you can nail a bible to a tree but it won't bleed real blood, or suffer pain and disappointment the way Jesus did.
FAITH is about Jesus. The Bible is a window, a sometimes cracked and dirty window that looks into the heart of God to find out how He wants us to live. Some look from the left side of the window, some look from the right and each may have a slightly different view of God. The only trouble arises is when people begin looking AT the window instead of through it. Then they spend all their time trying to clean it up and cover up the pits and cracks and explain that the window is as clean and pure as the One it is giving us the view of. But that's not true. The window has the same kinds of problems that we do as people looking through the window. We are just as cracked and pitted and flawed as the window. But God is bigger than all that, and just like He worked through flawed men in the OT to bring us the story of faith, He works through the Bible the same way--flawed though it is.
What inerrancy does is focus people on the window--so they never get to see God and Christ on the other side.
You asked if my religious view is "political." I ask you how can it be anything else? Don't you allow your religious view to affect how you view others? Do you view others from a selfish point of view or from the kind of view that Jesus had of them. When it is time politically to stand up for the poor and destitute do you? When it is time to speak out for health care for every man woman and child do you? When it comes time to speak out for decent wages for people struggling, for schools that prepare everyone for college, for equality of pay for women, for rights for people who have lived in this country for decades without acceptance but while being taken advantage of by corporations who pay them under the table---do you stand up for them?
The Bible you say is inerrant has more to say about how religious people treat the poor and disadvantaged than any other ethical topic!! How can anyone ignore those edicts and claim to be Christian?
And that's why the handwriting is on the wall for the church in America. It's not that non-religious people have turned away from the essence of the message of the Bible. It's that those who are claiming they are Christian have done so. What would happen if we actually FOLLOWED the teachings of the Bible--politically?
Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied. Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God. Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy. Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh? Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place. Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys." Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise." Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
The message here is really very simple: help the needy. It's not hard to understand; it's just hard to do. And the message is continuous. It's in the Torah; it's in the Prophets and Psalms; it's in the Gospels; it's in the Epistles. How many churches emphasize serving the poor as much as the Bible itself does? Would the world look the way it does if all believers followed these commands?
Another thing to note about these verses is the lack of caveats-- the lack of excuses. None of them add "...once a year" or "...when you feel you can" or "...if they're moral" or "...unless they're black" or "...if they speak English". We have plenty of reasons (I'm sure you can think of a dozen) why we can't go out and feed the hungry, why we have to turn away the needy borrower-- and God help us, how many of us have sold so much as a lawnmower in order to have money to give away? But all those reasons belong to our sinful human nature, not to God. God just wants those needy people helped. If you wanted to be a Biblical one-issue voter, you'd do well to make that one issue serving the poor. A church or a nation that ignores its poor or places stumbling blocks in their way, whose supreme good is Money, is very far from the spirit of God.
A sure sign of a greedy, selfish individual, is when they begin spouting off about "cheats" on welfare. For sure they've never looked up that this nation provides far, far more in corporate "welfare" than all the money provided to help poor people in this nation including the few individual cheats. And while we like to think of ourselves as more religious, the other western civilizations do a much better job of caring for their citizens than we do for ours.
And, rightfully, judgment when it comes, will begin at the House of God.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 11-27-2014 at 11:33 PM..
Warden, what parts of the Bible are fallible, and how is that determined?
The catholic Church tells people that Genesis can be taken allegorically. And they simply ignore the barbaric parts of the OT which are clearly authored by barbaric men and not God.
Warden, what parts of the Bible are fallible, and how is that determined?
Jesus--and even Paul whom I do not care about as much--made it quite easy to understand what is valid in the Bible in terms of how we live.
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So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets
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Matt 7:12
And Jesus reiterated the same thing a few chapters later
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And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND
WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
Matt 22:37-40
Paul:
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For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 5:14
In everything you do, in every requirement of yourself or others, live by the two commandments that sum up the Law and the Prophets.
When something does not align with these verses, it is the work of men. Perhaps good-hearted men, but nevertheless men.
Jesus lived for people and bringing them into His fold.
Jesus--and even Paul whom I do not care about as much--made it quite easy to understand what is valid in the Bible in terms of how we live.
.
Matt 7:12
And Jesus reiterated the same thing a few chapters later
Matt 22:37-40
Paul:
Galatians 5:14
In everything you do, in every requirement of yourself or others, live by the two commandments that sum up the Law and the Prophets.
When something does not align with these verses, it is the work of men. Perhaps good-hearted men, but nevertheless men.
Jesus lived for people and bringing them into His fold.
I completely agree with that (except for the part about Paul). But Jesus also spoke of impending judgement. Truth and grace. One without the other is an incomplete picture of God.
I completely agree with that (except for the part about Paul). But Jesus also spoke of impending judgement. Truth and grace. One without the other is an incomplete picture of God.
The judgment and the concept is sending folks to hell is a preaching tool to gain converts.
The other great preaching tool is eternal life. IN fact, I am convinced many Christians are Christians because they are seeking immortality. To be good to others is not a big deal to those that only want to save their own skin. And that is why to be SAVED is such a big deal for many.
I completely agree with that (except for the part about Paul). But Jesus also spoke of impending judgement. Truth and grace. One without the other is an incomplete picture of God.
God judges, the Holy Spirit convicts, you and I are simply commanded to love. Anything else usurps God's authority and tells Jesus that His summation of the Law and prophets was incorrect.
I completely agree with that (except for the part about Paul). But Jesus also spoke of impending judgement. Truth and grace. One without the other is an incomplete picture of God.
A non-sequitur. This really has nothing to do with using the Bible as authority when the Bible itself describes the authority of the Spirit, but that is just not concrete enough for your liking. You need to have something tangible that you can thump. Sorry.
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