Scripture/The Bible is God's Inspired, Inerrant, Infallible Word of Truth. (Torah, Gospel)
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I prefer the First Church of the Frigidaire, where many are cold and few are frozen. ;-)
Unfortunate news for those who are supposed to need it the most.
Unfortunate news for those who trust it the most.
Ah ... and let me guess ... YOU are that True Believer.
So if Trout knew him he would believe him, despite the holy book inherently making zero sense to him?
Pray tell, how would he come to believe?
Belief, you know, is not chosen. It is the inevitable result of knowledge which is based on facts.
You have just stated that the Bible is NOT profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness. So a person seeking to form a belief about your god is left with your claims and assertions and subjective interpretations, together with your claim to True Believerism.
Nice.
I'm not sure HOW Trout might become a Christian without the holy book. But suffice it to say that at the very least hundreds, if not thousands, of the earliest Christians didn't have any New Testament writings, and the OT writings are even more convoluted than the New.
But every time a Christian quotes "all scripture is inspired.," they never mention that the authors of those words were talking about the OT, because the NT didn't come together until third century and there were plenty of earlier writings going around that didn't make it into the canonized book we have now.
By the way, belief comes about through experential revelation as well. But revelation, like scripture, must be carefully weighed in light of common sense.
The human writers of the Books of the Bible knew that what they communicated under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit (the divine author) was God's word.
1 Thess. 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2] who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
But no matter what you say, or show by way of fulfillment of prophecy, many people, including liberal so-called Christians don't want to believe, and indeed, in many cases cannot believe because they have been locked into negative volition. It is a spiritual issue.
It is expected that the atheists and agnostics won't accept the Bible as the word of God, but for someone who considers himself to be a Christian to deny the validity of the witness of the writers of Scripture shows how Satan can deceive the careless Christian.
Such are closet atheists in that they want to believe in the God they have made up by claiming having His spirit, yet reject the book that speaks of the spirit. They do not want the real God at all.
Not that any of this will matter to you TroutDude. I post it for others so they're not deceived by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. I mean that respectfully because you do not know the Lord well enough to speak on spiritual matters of faith. If you knew Him you would believe His Word because the life, peace, joy, comfort and wisdom that it brings would convince you of its authenticity. As the song says "The Word is alive." If you truly want to know Him you must seek Him. If you seek Him you will find Him and your eyes will be opened as were Saul's on the road to Damascus. Until then, you'll be forever walking in darkness.
LOL!
Your earnestness is exceeded only by your self-righteousness and overall wrongness.
(Liberal Christians) are closet atheists in that they want to believe in the God they have made up by claiming to have His spirit, yet reject the book that speaks of the spirit. They do not want the real God at all.
How is it that you know these people's inner motivations? Have you actually discussed their beliefs with them?
Look, I used to be as you are and I really, really get the "all or nothing" mindset. I went right from fundamentalism to atheism because I didn't see the point of Christianity if the book was so full of myth and metaphor and symbolism that you would could wrest most any idea from its pages that you fancy.
What I didn't realize until later was that I and my Fundamentalist friends had been cherry picking and spiritualizing and rationalizing too, just within a different framework. The conceit I had as a Bibliolator was that it was possible to come up with a One True Objective Interpretation of every verse and passage and doctrine. I first ran into reality on that score at age 19 in Bible Institute. There was a group of students who were covertly indulging in hyperdispensationalism. So much for Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology and its seven dispensations. These guys were as convinced that the only binding scriptures were the Pauline letters, as my professors were that it was all holy writ. It was like listening to lawyers; you could see both sides until your head exploded.
Anyway what I can tell you about liberal Christians is that they believe in god, love him, and have meaningful spiritual lives, often with great humility. I don't agree with them anymore than I do with you, but I can tell you that they want god, and don't reject the book. They simply don't see either through the same lens.
I'm not sure HOW Trout might become a Christian without the holy book. But suffice it to say that at the very least hundreds, if not thousands, of the earliest Christians didn't have any New Testament writings, and the OT writings are even more convoluted than the New.
But every time a Christian quotes "all scripture is inspired.," they never mention that the authors of those words were talking about the OT, because the NT didn't come together until third century and there were plenty of earlier writings going around that didn't make it into the canonized book we have now.
By the way, belief comes about through experential revelation as well. But revelation, like scripture, must be carefully weighed in light of common sense.
Actually Paul was referring to the letters that were already in circulation. The NT as we know it was in use immediately as a new letter became available, they circulated those rapidly since they had no internet.
By the time 2nd Timothy was written they already had:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2nd Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1st Thessalonians
2nd Thessalonians
1st Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1st Peter
2nd Peter
Jude
Only the letters of John had not been written by the last quarter of the 1st century
Experiential revelation only comes as a confirmation of Scripture. Those who claim moore are simply exalting themselves.
Actually Paul was referring to the letters that were already in circulation. The NT as we know it was in use immediately as a new letter became available, they circulated those rapidly since they had no internet.
By the time 2nd Timothy was written they already had:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2nd Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1st Thessalonians
2nd Thessalonians
1st Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1st Peter
2nd Peter
Jude
Only the letters of John had not been written by the last quarter of the 1st century
Experiential revelation only comes as a confirmation of Scripture. Those who claim more are simply exalting themselves.
Just to hitchhike on this, all of the books of the NT were penned in the first century -- By 200AD, all of the books of the Bible as we know them, were in place and acknowledged by early believers.
Such are closet atheists in that they want to believe in the God they have made up by claiming having His spirit, yet reject the book that speaks of the spirit. They do not want the real God at all.
That's a good statement.
Many people want a "god" they can control.
But then - who really is god if you control what he does?
But then - who really is god if you control what he does?
I would imagine that somewhere, someplace, is a liberal Christian who is liberal because they want to "control" god or because they don't want god "controlling" them. It's a watered down version of the charge that we atheists often get of being rebellious, angry, wicked, hateful, nasty people.
Here in the Real World, though, it is not my general experience that this charge of (essentially) rebelliousness is true of either group.
The liberals I know are more into what they call "the mystery of faith" and that doesn't sound like they feel very in control. To be in control you have to have knowledge that you're certain of.
Come to think of it, it is YOU guys who claim most of the certitude. You're the ones with verbal, plenary inspiration, objective morality and immutable truths.
As for myself, I was god's and the church's to loose, and loose me they did. Not because I chafed under the rules. Far from it. I was the kid who welcomed the 10 pm curfew at Bible Institute. Who wants to stay up any later than that when you have to catch the bus to the main campus at 6 am? That was me, through and through. A total pleaser, whether you were talking god, the pastor, my parents, what have you. And now nearly 40 years later, I'm still straight-arrow good like that. No, for me, it was just initially unanswered prayer ending in various grief and loss, and then once I was out of the "bubble", the complete release of all the cognitive dissonance that had been bothering me for a long time, though I hadn't realized how much. No more claiming that 1+1 = 3. That is what I was getting away from, not inhibition of some secret desire to conduct basement orgies or something.
Rather than making smug statements about some stereotypical backslider or unbeliever, maybe it'd be more effective to really understand the actual motivations, feelings and concerns of such folks. If in fact it's your actual desire to reach them, maybe you need to figure out what will reach them rather than tsk-tsking about how they should be reachable.
To the extent this is true, it's probably for similar reasons to why you quote something you heard someone else say or that you read on the Internet in your original post. Most of it would not hold up to close scrutiny.
For example, there's not a single "prophecy" in the Bible that is specific enough to qualify as an actual prediction.
"There will be wars and rumors of wars", for instance, is not a prophecy. There are always wars and rumors of wars, and every generation thinks that theirs are particularly ominous.
An actual prophecy would say, e.g., "Behold, in the 1,919th year after Jesus' crucifixion by common reckoning a man named Adolf Hitler will begin to come to power. He will sore vex the world, even torturing and killing god's chosen people living among the people he will conquer, but he will die in the 1,945th year, by his own hand."
God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could just as well have inspired that, without breaking a sweat. That, and more. Odd that he didn't. People would be lining up around the block to join your church.
Not true! Actually, I'm writing a book on the subject and have personally researched all of the points. Your opinion about prophecy has absolutely no basis in truth or scripture (and claiming otherwise reveals an utter lack of scholarship and real substance in your claims).
In this environment - I expect about 20% support for the statement made in the OP.
That's about what I expect - and is one of the reasons I've largely dropped off the Christian forum. It's just that so many of the anti-Christian arguments on this forum are so far fetched, I thought it would be worthwhile for some of the real Christians to see that they are not alone here.
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You're the ones with verbal, plenary inspiration, objective morality and immutable truths.
