Scripture/The Bible is God's Inspired, Inerrant, Infallible Word of Truth. (Epistles, hell)

[mordant]

Originally Posted by jghorton

Not true! Actually, I'm writing a book on the subject and have personally researched all of the points. Your opinion about prophecy has absolutely no basis in truth or scripture (and claiming otherwise reveals an utter lack of scholarship and real substance in your claims).

Oh, well then ... I guess I should defer to your erudite magnificence, lest you flay me with it.

You can always tell when someone has no actual substantiated facts on offer because they invariably claim that their interlocutor's claims:

1) Have ABSOLUTELY NO basis in truth
2) Claiming otherwise reveals UTTER untutored, unwashed, ignorance.

It's funny that you can't simply say you disagree and why, and instead go straight to character assassination and ad hominem attacks.

And guys like you are always writing a book or have published a Synthesis or have some unspecified Advanced Degree.

If you wish, we could have an actual discussion which might be mutually profitable. But somehow I rather doubt you're interested.

Go on, surprise me.

[jghorton]

Originally Posted by Mike555

The human writers of the Books of the Bible knew that what they communicated under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit (the divine author) was God's word.

1 Thess. 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2] who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

But no matter what you say, or show by way of fulfillment of prophecy, many people, including liberal so-called Christians don't want to believe, and indeed, in many cases cannot believe because they have been locked into negative volition. It is a spiritual issue.

It is expected that the atheists and agnostics won't accept the Bible as the word of God, but for someone who considers himself to be a Christian to deny the validity of the witness of the writers of Scripture shows how Satan can deceive the careless Christian.

Thanks Mike, I always appreciate your defense of sound doctrine. While 1 Cor 2:14-16 was written more as an observation than a prophecy, it all to accurately describes the mindset of many Bible and Christian detractors on this forum today ... almost 2000 years later.

1 Cor 2:14-16 - The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

[jghorton]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

1). More than 40 Bible 'writers' over 1500-years claimed almost 5,000 times that God had spoken to them and inspired them to write the scriptures.

So too was Joseph Smith, and the Bible and the Book of Mormon cannot both be inspired truth.


2). There are more than 3500 future prophecies in the Bible, almost 3000 of which have been accurately fulfilled.
3). Almost 60-percent of the Bible was originally written as future prophecy that was accurately fulfilled at a later date.


3000 out of 3500 is nearly 86% of all "prophecy" has come to pass. Many of which have only been proven AFTER the event had happened and someone made a wild tangent connection to the bible. The mystery of the written word in the bible seems to only unravel ONCE something happens then the institutional church yells--LOOK! ANOTHER PROPHECY HAS COME TO PASS..

Since there are close to 500 prophecies yet to be revealed, share just 3 or 4 of them with us..

The only way prophecy can be proven is AFTER the prophesied event has happened - No wild tangental connection to the Bible is necessary; many Biblical prophecies, including over 300 Messianic prophecies fulfilled by Christ, were pretty specific. This prophetic fulfillment has repeatedly occurred throughout scripture. (I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make in your correlation between the Bible, Biblical prophecy --- and Joseph Smith and the Mormans???)

Some of the end time prophecies from Revelation, Ezekial, Daniel and others, include the very specific Ezekial 38-39 prophecies regarding Russia (Meshak, Gog, Magog), Persia/Iran and others surrounding Israel coming against Israel (with nobody standing-up for Israel) and God utterly destroying them in one day.

Others include the rise of the antiChrist and False prophet out of the midEast and numerous treaties that will be broken; The rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and re-initiation of animal sacrifice there (the abomination of desolation). Then there are a host of prophecies about God's judgment on the world and the final 7-year great Tribulation period, followed by the 1000-year millennial reign. Of course there are a number of what I call 'generic' prophecies:' Birth pains: Wars, rumors of wars, quakes, signs in the sky, etc. --- but, these have been applicable to every time and generation (I think intentionally) --- to allow every person of every generation to believe theirs could be the final generation and respond accordingly. As I pointed out, there are hundreds of these, some more specific than others.

But, my question to you is, are you really interested in scholarly proof --- or are you simply looking to ridicule the Bible?

[RonkonkomaNative]

Originally Posted by thomasroane

Many are called, few are chosen.

The Word of God would not make sense to an unbeliever. In truth, most self-professed Christians are not really Christians at all. Only a True Believer can understand what is written. Even the Apostles had a difficult time understanding the Word as Jesus broke it down into parables and stories. On one account, Peter, on behalf of the disciples, asked Jesus what He meant by the discourse of that which defiles and the parable of the plants in Matthew 15. Jesus responded "Are you still so dull?" Peter and the rest of the disciples did not come to be able to understand the scriptures and quote them verbatim until Jesus sent the Comforter (Holy Spirit). So, without the aid of the Holy Spirit you won't understand it or believe it. Even if Jesus Himself showed up to your doorstep with a hand delivered copy.

Jesus is the Word. The very Intellectual manifestation of God Almighty. To deny the Word of God is no different than denying Jesus Christ. The Biblical Cannon has stood the test of time and been deemed to be Divinely inspired by every sect of the Christian faith. (You will know a tree by its fruit) There is no dispute by them about its authenticity. Anyone who takes away or adds to will suffer a terrible curse or plagues as promised in the last chapter of the book of Revelation.

Not that any of this will matter to you TroutDude. I post it for others so they're not deceived by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. I mean that respectfully because you do not know the Lord well enough to speak on spiritual matters of faith. If you knew Him you would believe His Word because the life, peace, joy, comfort and wisdom that it brings would convince you of its authenticity. As the song says "The Word is alive." If you truly want to know Him you must seek Him. If you seek Him you will find Him and your eyes will be opened as were Saul's on the road to Damascus. Until then, you'll be forever walking in darkness.

I wish you could hear your bombastic, puffed up self. What happens if you are not chosen? What happens if all of your cruel, admonishments are not chosen? That would be quite a hoot, yes?

You will find me right next to you (that's you), poking you in the ribs.. saying ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Told you.

[Heart_Song]

Originally Posted by Wardendresden

The Bible makes sense to me, but in no way like YOU think it makes sense. It was written by perhaps sixty or seventy writers and edited by perhaps a thousand more. It contains infallibly everything that one needs to learn about coming to terms with God. But it is not an infallible science or social book. It reflects limited, sometimes cruel cultural views. It isn't easy to grasp. It requires a lifetime of work to get the slightest impression of what is going on.

Not all the prophecies of the OT came true. Some were changed by later writers. Some writings such as Jeremiah had prophecies DELETED in the English version we now read, because those prophecies fell short in the original, longer version discovered with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Not that any of this will matter to you, thomasroane. I post it for others so they're not deceived by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. I mean that respectfully because you have not studied scripture in a scholarly fashion well enough to know it is a quagmire into which you sink when taking it literally rather than as inspirationally. If you knew Him you would study that Bible much more carefully than you do right now because there is never any peace, joy, comfort, and wisdom for one who chooses to remain in ignorance. It is by KNOWING the Bible in a scholarly fashion that the truth shall set you free.

But it is darned hard to reach that point as a fundamentalist. I know, I was one.

Many are called, few are chosen.

Thank you for posting this. As you know, I believe in God, in Christ, and do appreciate the scriptures. But to try to force people to confess that the bible is infallible and inerrant is very Taliban-like IMO. To imply that a person is not a "REAL" Christian unless they hold such a belief about the bible is divisive and unloving and sophomoric.

[Arach Angle]

the bible isn't meant to be used literally but more like a map. A real map to, not that GPS stuff.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

So too was Joseph Smith, and the Bible and the Book of Mormon cannot both be inspired truth.

Of course they can. 15 million Mormons believe they are -- which obvious doesn't make it an accurate statement, in and of itself. Nevertheless, we fully believe them both to have been divinely inspired, and see them as in complete harmony with one another.

[jghorton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
There are many major proofs that scripture/the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. Below is a brief summary of just Ten. There is significant detail and depth behind each one of these.

1). More than 40 Bible 'writers' over 1500-years claimed almost 5,000 times that God had spoken to them and inspired them to write the scriptures. There were 40 different authors, but many of them make no claim of inspiration. For example, none of the Gospel writers claim they were inspired or instructed to write what they did. Neither did the author of Genesis. Paul may have been visited by Christ, but most of his writings were not attributed to direct inspiration. For the most part, actual claims of inspiration are limited to the prophets, who often had visions or dreams

There is some truth to what you say about the NT, since God spoke through the Prophets and Holy men of Old in the OT and through Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit in the NT. But, there are literally hundreds of direct claims throughout most books of the OT. Make a quick search, for example, of some 2000+ "I Wills" attributed to God. OR 700 times God is directly quoted "I am....", "I am the Lord" What about "God says/said?" How about "The Word of the Lord" --- I think that even many Christians have no idea of how many claims there are (almost 5,000 in the OT alone).

2). There are more than 3500 future prophecies in the Bible, almost 3000 of which have been accurately fulfilled. Some have come true, but I question the number. You can't count, for example, the Virgin Birth, because that would assume that the virgin birth actually happened. Instead it may have been a story written to fit a prophecy. I likewise used to question the number and specificity ... until I really started to examine the claims. I believe one can include the Virgin Birth along with any of the other prophecies that 'some' do not believe ever happened ... for the very reason that so much of the prophecy in scripture has been accurately fulfilled. I believe it is foolish to not believe it ... Is one to really suggest that God could not have done it that way, since we don't understand it???

3). Almost 60-percent of the Bible was originally written as future prophecy that was accurately fulfilled at a later date. Don't know how you came up with 60%. There are 5 major and 12 minor prophet books in the Bible, which accounts for about 25% of the content -- The Book writers were not the only ones to whom God spoke, plus the books are not evenly divided either in terms of content or number; As suggested elsewhere, take a look at the "I will's" of God in scripture -- the large majority of which are prophetic.

4). The odds against the Bible's convergence of thought and fidelity of the message across different generations, cultures, languages (without computers, modern telecommunications or audio/video media), are astronomical (and impossible). About the same as with Hindu scriptures -- Again, not true. The Hindu's only have a loosely connected group of philosophies and teachings with literally hundreds or even thousands of "gods" -- Perhaps a better example would be the Quran/Islam or the Torah/Judiasm ... since both are largely based on the Old Testament.

5). The life-changing power and influence of scripture over thousands of years and millions (or billions) of lives, exceeds human comprehension. See above

6). The Bible contains hundreds of scientific truths that were written hundreds and even thousands of years before human science discovered these truths for themselves. Archaeological evidence universally supports scripture/the Bible. Dinosaur bones and dating of human remains would seem to conflict with a literal reading of the bible -- You are simply quoting things you have heard or read on the internet!, not actual facts. If that is your source, then search "Science supports the Bible" or any similar terms of your choice. There you will find hundreds of pretty specific examples of scientific truths foretold by scripture.

7). There are more ancient manuscripts of scripture/the Bible than any other literary work known to mankind, by a magnitude of ten to one! Could be, but who's counting? Literary scholars have counted; and pointed out that there are about 10,000 Scriptural manuscripts as compared with about 600 for the Illiad and Odyssey. The point is not the number, but the correlation between manuscripts separated by a thousand or more years (ie; Dead Sea Scrolls vs oldest Masoretic Texts).

8). Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit affirm scripture as God's divinely inspired Word of Truth I could not find this statement in the Gospels -- Look for the many times that Jesus affirms OT Scripture (using terms like "according to scripture" -- Honestly, are you really looking for any of this or simply trying to come up with any kind of negative response off the top of your head" --

9). Overwhelming personal testimony from people from all walks of life (martyrs, scholars, presidents, scientists, others) all attest to the truth and life changing influence of scripture. Same for Dale Carnegie's book - OK, you are right -- How many have died for Dale Carnegie?? Come-on, you are just trying to come-up with quick quips.

10). The remarkable, uniquely unparalleled Bible WAS written by ancient, ignorant, superstitious writers. There is no way they could have written what they did without divine intervention. See also the Koran --- Which is, as stated, largely based on the Old Testament, but then diverges into the Prophet Mohammed, and ignores Christ. Likewise, the Quran doesn't make and cannot support most of the Bible's claims.

Those who seek to denigrate scripture/the Bible typically only quote something they heard someone else say or that they read on the internet. Why do they do that? One need only listen to the false claims these detractors invariably make about God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, God's truth, plan and purpose for mankind, heaven, hell and a hundred other Spiritual matters ... to understand their motive and agenda.

Jesus taught that everyone would ultimately be judged by the very words He had spoken (Jn 12:48). Believing scripture is the inspired Word of God is not the basis of Salvation or Eternal Life. But, denying and attacking scripture, denies and attacks the teachings of God and Jesus Christ;I revere and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. The other 80% of the Bible I take with a grain of salt. as well as the source of information people have relied upon for thousands of years about God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, heaven, hell and thousands of other truths. Bash away you atheists, agnostics and pretend Christians, but, remember, you will ultimately be held accountable for every false word you utter!
My thoughts in red

[thomasroane]

Originally Posted by jghorton

1 Cor 2:14-16 - The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

That verse does a far more effective job of getting my point across. My apologies to TroutDude and anyone else I've offended for coming across as "haha, sucks to be you!" That's not me. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life and God has, rightfully so, put me thru the wringer. He taught me the hard way what it means in Proverbs 9:10.

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

I was a hard headed mule who thought I was a good Christian but after I was brought down to my knees and began to truly seek Him (I had no choice) I began to understand. You can't walk with one foot in heaven and one in hell. You must choose. I had read the Bible many times before. Now that I know and respect the Lord (Hebrews 10 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!), He has filled me with the Spirit so that I may now worship him with divine knowledge and wisdom. Now, I can read scriptures that I must have read a hundred times and suddenly it jumps out at me! I find myself saying "aha, that's what that means!" an awful lot now.

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell choose it. Without that self-choice, there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek, find. To those who knock, it is opened.”. . . ~CS Lewis - The Great Divorce

As to how Trout or anyone can come to know Him there is only way. The Father must first draw him. No one comes to God. Even though He calls every man so that His judgments are always true, He knows who will be His and who will not. No one who is a true Christian will tell you they found God or came to God. He either punishes or woos (often both) until we surrender and answer His call. There is no pride about my Faith. Because I did nothing right on my own except to finally relent and confess that He is King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

John 6 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: And they will all be taught by God.

[thomasroane]

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

the bible isn't meant to be used literally but more like a map. A real map to, not that GPS stuff.

Says everyone who has some pet sin that they want to excuse. I used to be "that guy." Now I realize there's no such thing as cafeteria Christianity.