Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-27-2015, 07:54 PM
 
45,706 posts, read 27,317,064 times
Reputation: 23963

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
He didn't lie...
What was Abraham's intent? He intentionally withheld information that "jeopardized" God's plan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-27-2015, 10:13 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,090,166 times
Reputation: 2228
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
What was Abraham's intent? He intentionally withheld information that "jeopardized" God's plan.
Didn't lie...That why G-d didn't have a problem with it or He would have said so...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-28-2015, 07:37 AM
 
45,706 posts, read 27,317,064 times
Reputation: 23963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Didn't lie...That why G-d didn't have a problem with it or He would have said so...
God did have a problem with what Abraham did. Abraham pulled this stunt twice. One resulted in plaques on the king's family. The other resulted in the wombs of all of the women shut and God telling the king that he is a dead man for taking Sarah.

Abraham did not act in faith, but came up with his own scheme to get through difficult situations.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-28-2015, 10:11 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,090,166 times
Reputation: 2228
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
God did have a problem with what Abraham did. Abraham pulled this stunt twice. One resulted in plaques on the king's family. The other resulted in the wombs of all of the women shut and God telling the king that he is a dead man for taking Sarah.

Abraham did not act in faith, but came up with his own scheme to get through difficult situations.
Then G-d would have indicated this in the Scriptures if He indeed did have a problem with it...What you are doing is undue speculation, because G-d did not discipline him nor rebuke him...So if G-d had a problem with what Abraham did then He would have taken it out on Abraham, not the King and his family...Why don't you put that into the context that it is meant to be...This w
hole incident was G-d's way of giving riches to Abraham through the King...

Abram and Pharaoh

The first story appears in Genesis 12:10-20, and is the briefest of the three.
Abram (later called Abraham) is pressured to move to Egypt in order to evade a famine. Because his wife (also his half-sister), Sarai, is very beautiful, Abram asks her to say that she was only his sister lest the Egyptians kill him so that they can take her. On arriving before the Pharaoh, the Egyptians recognise Sarai's beauty, and the Egyptian princes shower Abram with gifts of livestock and servants to gain her hand in marriage. Sarai thus becomes part of "Pharaoh's house" (believed to mean his harem), but Yahweh sends a plague to punish Pharaoh - probably in order to protect him from committing adultery(Ross, A.P., 1988, Creation and Blessing). Pharaoh realizes the truth of the matter, restores Sarai to Abram and orders them to leave Egypt with all the possessions Abram had acquired in Egypt.


Abraham and Abimelech

The second story is split into two parts, The first part is in Genesis 20:1-16 and the second in Genesis 21:22-34. The first part begins with Abraham emigrating to the southern region of Gerar, whose king is named Abimelech. (Note that, by this time, God has changed Abram and Sarai's names to Abraham and Sarah, respectively, as stated at Genesis 17:5,15.) Abraham states that Sarah, his wife, is really his sister, leading Abimelech to try to take Sarah as a wife; however, God intervened before Abimelech touched Sarah. God visits Abimelech in a dream and tells him the truth, acknowledging that Abimelech made the mistake innocently, but ordering Abimelech to restore Sarah to Abraham. Abimelech complains to Abraham, who states that he did not exactly lie, since Sarah is his half-sister.



Abimelech rebuking Abraham by Wenceslas Hollar. Abimelech asks Abraham, "What has thou done unto us?"
Abimelech then restores Sarah to Abraham, and gives him gifts of livestock and servants by way of apology, and also allows Abraham to reside anywhere in Gerar. Abimelech also gives 1000 pieces of silver to Abraham to reprove Sarah by a "covering of the eyes". The story then states for the first time that Abimelech, his wife, and household, had previously been punished for Abimelech's mistake concerning Sarah, by being made infertile; suggesting that Sarah had remained Abimelech's wife for quite some time before God visited him and corrected his error.

After an intermission concerning the birth of a son to Abraham and Sarah, the second half of the story begins with Abimelech requesting Abraham swear an oath of non-aggression towards Abimelech and his family, to which Abraham agrees. Abimelech's servants later "violently take away" a well, and so Abraham complains to Abimelech, who apologises. Abraham then sets aside seven ewes as witness to his having dug the well, and Abraham, Abimelech, and Phichol, Abimelech's chief captain, then make a covenant, and leave each other. The place the covenant was made is consequently named Beersheba, which translates either to well of oaths or well of seven or seven wells, and according to Genesis 21:33, Abraham plants a tamarisk tree there in memory.


Isaac and Abimelech

The third story appears in Genesis 26:1-33. Here it is Isaac who, in order to avoid a famine, emigrates to the southern region of Gerar, whose king is named Abimelech. Isaac has been told to do so by Yahweh, who also orders him to avoid Egypt, and promises to him the fulfillment of the oath made with Abraham. Isaac states that Rebekah, his wife, is really his sister, as he is worried that the Philistines will otherwise kill him in order to marry Rebekah. After a while, Abimelech spots Isaac sporting(the word is used of laughter in Genesis 18 and is derived from the name Isaac. Abimelech knew that a brother does not 'yitsak' his sister) with Rebekah, and states that she must be Isaac's wife rather than his sister.



Isaac and Abimelech Swear Friendship. This occurred at Beersheba.
Abimelech then orders that Rebekah be left alone by the denizens of Gerar, on pain of death. Isaac goes on to spend a year in the area, and gradually built up a large household of servants, and a strong possession of livestock, leading to the envy of the Philistines of Gerar, so Abimelech sends Isaac away. Noting that the wells that Abraham had dug have since been filled in, Isaac re-digs them, giving etymologies for three:

Esek (which means argument) gaining its name due to the Gerar herdsmen contesting the ownership of the well
Sitnah (which means opposition) gaining its name due to the Gerar herdsmen also contesting this well
Rehoboth (which means enlarged space) gaining its name because Yahweh made room for Isaac
Isaac then travels to Beersheba (given its name in Genesis 21:31), and Yahweh appears to him, so Isaac builds an altar there. Abimelech then meets Isaac there, with a friend named Ahuzzath, and Phichol, Abimelech's chief captain. They then make an oath of non-aggression, hold a feast, and then depart from one another. Later on the same day, Isaac's servants report to him that they have found another well, so he names the place in such a way that it later becomes known as Beersheba. Beer is the Hebrew word for well, the other half of the word is explained as due to Isaac naming the location:
Shibah, which means seven, according to the Masoretic text
Shebua, which means oaths, according to the Septuagint


Historical-critical analysis of the narratives

The Jewish Encyclopedia's article "Sarah" notes that

"the story of Sarah's life, brief and incomplete as it is, presents nevertheless curious repetitions, e.g., the incident with Pharaoh and a similar incident with Abimelech (Genesis 22:10 and Genesis 20:1)."
Striking parallels occur between the tales of Isaac and Abimelech and Abraham and Abimelech, both of which involve the names of Gerar, Abimelech, and Phichol, all taking the same roles in the story, with Phichol and Abimelech making the oath to the Patriarch at Beersheba, which was consecrated to the Israelite deity, and with Abimelech previously coming to realise that the Patriarch's wife is just that. The Egyptian story on the other hand resembles an abridgement, with the later treaty cut out of the story, and on the whole appearing in its own context to be an odd irrelevant aside. As they currently stand in the Torah, it appears that Beersheba is named for the first time twice, for the same reasons, consecrated for the first time twice, and that there are either two consecutive Abimelechs who are each king of Gerar in turn, and each have a captain of the guard named Phichol, or that these are the same long lived individual, with each instance of Abimelech correcting an earlier identification of the Patriarch's sister with his wife, and desiring to make a non-aggression pact covering multiple generations with the Patriarchs at Beersheba.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, the recurring story has a unified purpose:
"From the point of view of the history of culture these episodes are very instructive. But it is not very probable that Abraham would have run the risk twice. Moreover, a similar incident is reported in regard to Isaac and Rebecca (Genesis 34:6-11). This recurrence indicates that none of the accounts is to be accepted as historical; all three are variations of a theme common to the popular oral histories of the Patriarchs. That women were married in the way here supposed is not to be doubted. The purpose of the story is to extol the heroines as most beautiful and show that the Patriarchs were under the special protection of the Deity."
This view takes the marital framework at face value, as historical.

Jewish and Christian interpretations

An explanation presented in classical times, and suggested by Rashi, argued that when a stranger comes to town, the proper thing to do would be to inquire if he needs food and drink, not whether his female companion is a married woman, and hence as Abimelech did the latter, it tipped off Abraham to the fact that there is no fear of God in this place, and so he lied about his relationship with Sarah in order to avoid being killed. Consequently, it could be argued that the parallel behaviour results from this lack of fear of God by the antagonists in the other two similar situations.
Christian interpretation of the incidents has varied considerably. Some comment
ators have seen them as regrettable exceptions in the lives of those who otherwise lived upright lives, in the same sense perhaps as Noah's and Lot's drunkenness and David's adultery. On the other hand, commentators such as Allan Turner, in his essay "Lying: Is It Ever Right?", takes the standpoint that the patriarchal individuals did not actually lie, but merely concealed part of the truth.



- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife%E...ook_of_Genesis

Last edited by Richard1965; 06-28-2015 at 10:28 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-28-2015, 10:38 AM
 
Location: New England
37,340 posts, read 28,354,649 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
So...She was still his sister...So, he didn't lie...
He was just economic with the truth, like many of us when it comes to saving our ass.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-28-2015, 05:17 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,090,166 times
Reputation: 2228
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
He was just economic with the truth, like many of us when it comes to saving our ass.
And what would you have done?...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-28-2015, 09:01 PM
 
Location: New England
37,340 posts, read 28,354,649 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
And what would you have done?...
Blagged my way through things in life while learning to trust God that he's an ever present help in times of trouble(just like Abraham). How about yourself ?.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2015, 01:16 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,090,166 times
Reputation: 2228
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Blagged my way through things in life while learning to trust God that he's an ever present help in times of trouble(just like Abraham). How about yourself ?.
I would use the brains that G-d gave me and that He expected me to use...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2015, 01:49 PM
 
Location: New England
37,340 posts, read 28,354,649 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I would use the brains that G-d gave me and that He expected me to use...
So without fail you have done that your whole life ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2015, 02:53 PM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,791,734 times
Reputation: 223
The Lord has said this: "Here is the covenant I have made with them, My spirit which is upon you and my words which I have put into your mouth shall never leave your mouth nor the mouth of your children, nor the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:16 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top