If Jesus said no one has ascended to Heaven & David didnt ascend to Heaven, why do we think we will go when we die? (Jehovah, Deuteronomy)

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4

Please keep in mind Luke 16: 19-31 is Not a real happening but an illustration or a parable.

Jesus taught sleep in death -> John 11 vs 11-14
So, while the dead Jesus was in biblical hell then Jesus was in an unconscious sleeping state. - Acts 2:27; 3:15
Sleep in death is also taught in the old Hebrew Scriptures such as:

Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Refer to post #20.

And I know that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. I said it was a parable (post #16). A parable is a story that illustrates a point. In this case, the parable illustrates an after death reality even though the story itself might have been fictitious.

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by Mike555

At the time Jesus said it, it was true. No one was admitted into heaven until Jesus went to the cross and was resurrected, ascended, and seated at the right hand of the Father. Up until that time everyone went to Sheol. Believers went to Abraham's Bosom, and unbelievers went to the torment's section. At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain in the temple was torn by God Himself from top to bottom. This signified the removal of the barrier between man and God and that man was now allowed to enter into the true Holy of holies in heaven.

This is why Paul was able to say that he'd rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). And this is why in Revelation 6:9-11 believers are seen in heaven.

The soul does not cease to exist when the body dies, but separates from it. And that is what physical death is - the separation of the soul from the body. Jesus made it clear that the soul continues on after the death of the body (Matthew 10:28). And Peter spoke of his impending death as a laying aside of his dwelling and a departure (2 Peter 1:13-15).

The renting of the banner at the precise moment when Jesus died signified the cutting off of the Israelites as Gods chosen-Matt 23:37-38 verifies their house is abandoned to them( cut off). But God out of his great love and Mercy left the door open to them--they must accept Jesus as the Messiah--they have refused for over 1900 years, it will not change.
Jesus started a new religion, trained the apostles to be his teachers, who in turn trained others to teach.
You are taking Matt 10:28 out of context--men can kill souls. Joshua 11:11--Gen 1:20,21,24,25--animals-fish became living souls---
Lev 24:17-18-- In case a man strikes any soul of mankind fatally, he should be put to death without fail.
Rev 16:3-- It became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul died.

so in reality--the soul is the breath of life. Gen 2:7

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Mike555

The Bible does not teach soul sleep.

Neither, does it teach that your soul is immortal.

[OzzyRules]

The entire gospel was an allegory for the Christian movement. If heaven is a state of mind, then the descriptions given by Jesus in the story are also symbolic.

The gospels were written by follower of Jesus, who, in a sense had the spirit of Christ. Which meant that their parables were the "word of Christ" to them.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Before the cross believers went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) which at that time was in Sheol/Hades.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

For those reading the above, the only response needed is Acts 20:30

Originally Posted by Mike555

Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

The rude and uncalled for implication being of course that I'm distorting the truth in order to draw disciples after me. However what I said is in accordance with Luke 16:19-31.

Absolutely, you are purposefully distorting the truth.
There is nothing in accordance of the Scriptures nor the truth that claims what you do.

Luke 16:19-31 is the account of the parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus by Jesus.
Hades is another term for hell. the rich man went to hell .... Abraham did not.

Using the same KJV that you used for Acts 20:30 it states in Luke 16:22-23

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's
bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The rich man symbolizes unbelievers upon death: hell aka Hades, Sheol \ experiencing torment
Lazarus symbolizes believers fate upon death: heaven aka Paradise, Abraham's Bosom \ experiencing comfort

People before the cross like Abraham, who by placing their trust and faith in God, go to heaven (Paradise) after physical death.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Mike555

At the time Jesus said it, it was true. No one was admitted into heaven until Jesus went to the cross and was resurrected, ascended, and seated at the right hand of the Father. Up until that time everyone went to Sheol. Believers went to Abraham's Bosom, and unbelievers went to the torment's section. At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain in the temple was torn by God Himself from top to bottom. This signified the removal of the barrier between man and God and that man was now allowed to enter into the true Holy of holies in heaven.

This is why Paul was able to say that he'd rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). And this is why in Revelation 6:9-11 believers are seen in heaven.

The soul does not cease to exist when the body dies, but separates from it. And that is what physical death is - the separation of the soul from the body. Jesus made it clear that the soul continues on after the death of the body (Matthew 10:28). And Peter spoke of his impending death as a laying aside of his dwelling and a departure (2 Peter 1:13-15).

Originally Posted by kjw47

The renting of the banner at the precise moment when Jesus died signified the cutting off of the Israelites as Gods chosen-Matt 23:37-38 verifies their house is abandoned to them( cut off). But God out of his great love and Mercy left the door open to them--they must accept Jesus as the Messiah--they have refused for over 1900 years, it will not change.
Jesus started a new religion, trained the apostles to be his teachers, who in turn trained others to teach.
You are taking Matt 10:28 out of context--men can kill souls. Joshua 11:11--Gen 1:20,21,24,25--animals-fish became living souls---
Lev 24:17-18-- In case a man strikes any soul of mankind fatally, he should be put to death without fail.
Rev 16:3-- It became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul died.

so in reality--the soul is the breath of life. Gen 2:7

The Jews are still God's chosen people though they have been TEMPORARILY set aside until the times of the Gentiles has come in (Luke 21:24). As a result of the judgments of the Tribulation the Jews will come to realize that Jesus is the Messiah. And when Jesus returns He will establish His Millennial kingdom which will have a decidedly Jewish flavor. At that time the Abrahamic, Land, and New Covenant to Israel will be fulfilled.

The tearing of the veil in the temple could very well have had as part of its significance God's judgment on the temple. However, the curtain separated the Holy of holies from the rest of the temple. No one was allowed to enter into the Holy of holies except for the high priest, and then only once a year on the day of atonement. The Holy of holies in the temple represented the true Holy of holies in heaven, or which is heaven itself (Hebrews 9:24). The veil represented Christ's flesh (Hebrews 10:20). Therefore, when Jesus died and the temple veil was torn this signified that the entrance to the true Holy of holies - heaven, was open to those who receive Christ as Savior.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Before the cross believers went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) which at that time was in Sheol/Hades.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

For those reading the above, the only response needed is Acts 20:30

Originally Posted by Mike555

Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

The rude and uncalled for implication being of course that I'm distorting the truth in order to draw disciples after me. However what I said is in accordance with Luke 16:19-31.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Absolutely, you are purposefully distorting the truth.
There is nothing in accordance of the Scriptures nor the truth that claims what you do.

Luke 16:19-31 is the account of the parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus by Jesus.
Hades is another term for hell. the rich man went to hell .... Abraham did not.

Using the same KJV that you used for Acts 20:30 it states in Luke 16:22-23

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's
bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The rich man symbolizes unbelievers upon death: hell aka Hades, Sheol \ experiencing torment
Lazarus symbolizes believers fate upon death: heaven aka Paradise, Abraham's Bosom \ experiencing comfort

People before the cross like Abraham, who by placing their trust and faith in God, go to heaven (Paradise) after physical death.

Because you disagree with me concerning the location of Paradise prior to the cross, you automatically assume that I am deliberately distorting the truth rather than simply accepting that we have different views on the matter. I hold to the view that Hades consists of at least three parts. One part being what was 'Paradise' before Jesus went to the cross but is now empty. 'Torments' is another section of Hades which is still the place of confinement of all who have died in human history in an unsaved state. These two sections are separated by a great chasm. The third section is Tartarus, spoken of in 2 Peter 2:4 which is where a certain group of fallen angels are currently imprisoned.

I do not believe that anyone had access to heaven before Jesus died, resurrected, and ascended into heaven because just as no one was allowed to pass though the veil to enter into the Holy of holies in the temple (other than the high priest once a year on the day of atonement), no one was allowed into the true Holy of holies in heaven, or which is heaven (Hebrews 9:24). But when Jesus died, the veil (which represented Christ's flesh) (Hebrews 10:20) in the temple was torn from top to bottom by God Himself thus signifying that the true Holy of Holies - heaven was now accessible for those who have put their faith in Jesus.


Now if you feel the need to accuse me of deliberately distorting the truth because you don't agree with me, then so be it. And that is all I am going to say on the matter. We're done here.

[RomulusXXV]

NO ONE knows what happens when we die despite the arguing back and forth as to who is right on this subject. WE might have our point of view with regard to specific scriptures that say this or that about the state of the dead but at the end of the day, again, no one knows. We will find out after death if these things happen or we won't. So, while this topic might be interesting to mull over no actual 'debate' is possible.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

NO ONE knows what happens when we die despite the arguing back and forth as to who is right on this subject. WE might have our point of view with regard to specific scriptures that say this or that about the state of the dead but at the end of the day, again, no one knows. We will find out after death if these things happen or we won't. So, while this topic might be interesting to mull over no actual 'debate' is possible.

The only thing a person will experience is the state of dying.
Whether, or not there is an after life.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

NO ONE knows what happens when we die despite the arguing back and forth as to who is right on this subject. WE might have our point of view with regard to specific scriptures that say this or that about the state of the dead but at the end of the day, again, no one knows. We will find out after death if these things happen or we won't. So, while this topic might be interesting to mull over no actual 'debate' is possible.

Actally it is, and the only purpose of not having the debate is to let Bible apologetics get away with not having its flaws exposed.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Before the cross believers went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) which at that time was in Sheol/Hades.

So according to Luke, the penitent malefactor would be with Jesus in Paradise on the Friday. So unless Jesus went to Hades, Paradise is in heaven. And didn't Elijah ascend to heaven in a fiery chariot? And doesn't the whole David's Son argument mean that David's spirit and Adams' are in Heaven? And doesn't that mean that Moses and Abraham are there too?

What are we to make of Jesus' words to Nicodemus? Well, frankly John is not to be trusted. He talks of Jesus doing four miracles or 'signs' if you prefer, where as the synoptics say he did a hatful. he records a spear -thrust and leg -breaking and the absence of Thomas and this is not only not recorded by the Synoptics but contradicted by Luke.

The temple cleansing is shifted out of place and this discussion with Nicodemus is rather like the Johannine sermons - not even hinted at by the Synoptics. The conclusion is clear: John made it up. Odd that he seems unaware that Moses and Abraham and Elijah are supposed to have made it to heaven and has Jesus claim that nobody did. But this was a Christian theological change of view that denied that Elijah made it heaven and placed him in some other place instead. Thus it is not surprising that the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration is omitted by him altogether.

So really, John is outvoted three to one by the synoptics and reference to what he says carries no weight.