If Jesus said no one has ascended to Heaven & David didnt ascend to Heaven, why do we think we will go when we die? (crucified, Leviticus)

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by kjw47

Your thinking on the matter of heaven is an impossibility--only 144,000( Luke 12:32=little flock=anointed) are promised heaven--Rev 14:3-- see the word bought from the earth, bought by Jesus' blood--Jesus promised the great multitude--The earth.( Matt 5:5)--the psalmist even taught that truth-Psalm 37:9,11,29

That's the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Not the Bible.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Paradise is now located in the third heaven as Paul states in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. But before Jesus went to the cross Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was located in Hades. Everyone who was in Abraham's Bosom was transferred to the third heaven after Jesus made the third heaven accessible as signified by the tearing of the temple veil. See my other posts on that in this thread.


Yes. (2 Kings 2:11)

But which heaven was being referred to? Paul speaks of three heavens (2 Cor. 12:2). And these three heavens are, 1.) The earth's atmosphere: 1 Kings 14:11; 2.) The stellar Universe: Deuteronomy 4:19; 3.) The third heaven: 2 Cor. 12:2-4

While there are those who think the third heaven is being referred to, there are those who think that 2 Kings 2:11 simply means that Elijah was caught up into the air and transported to a different location on the earth only to die at a later time at which point he would have gone to Abraham's Bosom. There is some Scriptural evidence which may suggest this to be the case. Some years after Elijah 'went up by a whirlwind to heaven', an Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah (2 Chronicles 21:12-15). Jehoram became king after Elijah was 'taken up.' Was it the same Elijah, or a different prophet with the same name?




All Old Testament believers are now in the third heaven. But before Jesus went to the cross, all Old Testament believers were in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise which was at that time located in Hades.


But just for the sake of argument, let's assume that Jesus didn't mean that Abraham's Bosom was actually in Hades in a separate section from the torments side (Luke 16:19-21), but only that in some way Lazarus and the rich man were able to see each other. The fact still remains that before Jesus went to the cross, no one had access to the third heaven. I have already mentioned in posts #26 and 27 the significance of the torn veil in the temple and the fact that the Holy of holies in the temple represented the true Holy of holies in heaven. Just as no one except for the high priest was allowed to enter into the holy of holies in the temple, and he could only enter once a year on the day of atonement, no one was allowed into the true Holy of holies in heaven until Jesus who is the great high priest removed the 'veil' with His death on the cross which was signified by the tearing of the veil in the temple. With His death the veil beyond which no one could pass into the true Holy of holies was removed and heaven was now accessible to those who receive Jesus as Savior.

We have to bear in mind that the writers were putting down their beliefs, and they hadn't died so didn't know. Luke's parable supposes that the poor man Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, third heaven or paradise and could still have a sight of Dives thirsting in perdition. Not very likely but needed for his story.

I always supposed there were three heavens and Paul went to have tea and a chat with Jesus in the heavenly parlour, while paradise was on the next floor with Abraham and the rest and God and his angels in the penthouse suite. It's all 'Heaven' and = paradise or the bosom of Abraham.

So why does John say that Jesus hadn't yet ascended to the father after resurrection? Why does Luke say that he had - and on the Friday together with the penitent thief? It is possible to try to work out various heavens, Abrahamic bosoms and paradises all in different locations in that postulated unseen world where heaven and hell is all one but somehow separate. But the probability is that John and Luke simply did not know what they were talking about. I rather regard the idea that the heavenly chariot was just ferrying Elijah to a different place on earth is again guesswork and more based on what suits a particular theological belief than what what seems likely (1).

I agree somewhat, by the way about the significance of the tearing of the temple veil. This signified that the presence of God had zoomed out of the temple in disgust at the death of Jesus and regarded the Jews as deserving of their fate.

This is nonsense of course as the Jews were nothing to do with Jesus' death and the Romans were everything to do with it and Jesus had to die as part of God's plan anyway. Why - Jesus asked to be let off and God wouldn't have it. But that didn't matter to the Roman Greeks who wrote the account. The Jews (in their view) were in the wrong, rejectors and killers of Christ and deserving of everything they got, and never mind the logic.

(1) a p.s I take the point that Elijah was first with Ahab in the Northern kingdom around the 850's and then a denouncing letter came from him to Jehoram of Judah who was king a bit later. I can see in the context of John one might argue that Elijah simply got transported elsewhere. Somewhere in Judah? But evidently not as advisor to the king. Isn't it equally likely that Elijah wrote a letter in heaven and had an angel deliver it? Well, of course it isn't a problem for an old skeptic like me who sees much of the Bible as people just making stuff up.

However, this is all beside the point as, whenever Elijah, Moses and Abraham were taken up or were not, they were evidently in heaven or some place where they could come back and pose for photos on the mount of transfiguration. But John doesn't mention that amazing event, so that must mean that he didn't know anything about it and so could write airy claims about nobody has ascended to heaven.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I am quite sure that you don't care what the writer of Hebrews wrote. The writer of Hebrews knew very well what duties of the Kohen HaGodol or high priest were. The only time the high priest entered the Holy of Holies was on Yom Kippur (the day of atonement) when he carried the blood of the sacrificial animal inside in order to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat of the ark. Other than that neither the high priest or anyone else was allowed into the Holy of holies.

Only once a year, on Yom Kippur, the High Priest would enter this room and pray to God on behalf of the Israelite nation.
The First Temple - Solomon's Temple | Jewish Virtual Library

Yea, well, they had to go in twice daily to light incense...So, yea, you're wrong and so is your source...


B. "Whenever he wants to enter, he may enter"

Let us begin with the approach that is more prevalent among Chazal, although – surprisingly – most of the Rishonim reject it. According to this approach, the parasha comes to limit only the manner in which the Kohen Gadol is to enter the Kodesh Kodashim, but not the timing. According to the following midrash, Moshe had thought that from now on, Aharon would not be permitted to enter regularly, but God assures him that this is not so:

R. Yehuda said in the name of R. Simon: Moshe was greatly troubled over this. He said, “Woe is me! Perhaps Aharon, my brother, has been removed from His Presence?”... God said to Moshe, “It is not as you think… Rather, whenever he wishes to enter, he may enter, but he should enter according to this procedure." (Vayikra Rabba, parasha 21:7)

Another midrash teaches:

Thus Aharon would enter the Kodesh Kodashim at all times, and were it not for the many merits that entered with him and aided him, he could not have entered. Why? Because the ministering angels were there. (Shemot Rabba, parasha 38)

According to this approach, there were actually two "tracks" for the Kohen Gadol to enter the Kodesh Kodashim. There was an obligatory entrance once a year, on Yom Kippur, and there was a voluntary track, whereby he could enter whenever he wished to. What is the nature of this second track?


So, yea, you're wrong again, Mike....

[earl012]

Originally Posted by SAAN

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.



Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?

There is no son of God. God was Jesus, so, naturally, he would ascend into heaven. It is a difficult plight for humankind. No human has ascending into heaven.

[RomulusXXV]

Originally Posted by RomulusXXV

NO ONE knows what happens when we die despite the arguing back and forth as to who is right on this subject. WE might have our point of view with regard to specific scriptures that say this or that about the state of the dead but at the end of the day, again, no one knows. We will find out after death if these things happen or we won't. So, while this topic might be interesting to mull over no actual 'debate' is possible.

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Actually it is, and the only purpose of not having the debate is to let Bible apologetics get away with not having its flaws exposed.

Yes, I guess you're right.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I am quite sure that you don't care what the writer of Hebrews wrote. The writer of Hebrews knew very well what duties of the Kohen HaGodol or high priest were. The only time the high priest entered the Holy of Holies was on Yom Kippur (the day of atonement) when he carried the blood of the sacrificial animal inside in order to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat of the ark. Other than that neither the high priest or anyone else was allowed into the Holy of holies.

Only once a year, on Yom Kippur, the High Priest would enter this room and pray to God on behalf of the Israelite nation.
The First Temple - Solomon's Temple | Jewish Virtual Library

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Yea, well, they had to go in twice daily to light incense...So, yea, you're wrong and so is your source...


B. "Whenever he wants to enter, he may enter"

Let us begin with the approach that is more prevalent among Chazal, although – surprisingly – most of the Rishonim reject it. According to this approach, the parasha comes to limit only the manner in which the Kohen Gadol is to enter the Kodesh Kodashim, but not the timing. According to the following midrash, Moshe had thought that from now on, Aharon would not be permitted to enter regularly, but God assures him that this is not so:

R. Yehuda said in the name of R. Simon: Moshe was greatly troubled over this. He said, “Woe is me! Perhaps Aharon, my brother, has been removed from His Presence?”... God said to Moshe, “It is not as you think… Rather, whenever he wishes to enter, he may enter, but he should enter according to this procedure." (Vayikra Rabba, parasha 21:7)

Another midrash teaches:

Thus Aharon would enter the Kodesh Kodashim at all times, and were it not for the many merits that entered with him and aided him, he could not have entered. Why? Because the ministering angels were there. (Shemot Rabba, parasha 38)

According to this approach, there were actually two "tracks" for the Kohen Gadol to enter the Kodesh Kodashim. There was an obligatory entrance once a year, on Yom Kippur, and there was a voluntary track, whereby he could enter whenever he wished to. What is the nature of this second track?


So, yea, you're wrong again, Mike....

I'm not surprised that you would choose to believe rabbinic literature over what the Scriptures themselves say, but the Scriptures are clear that entrance into the Holy of holies was to be only on the day of atonement.

You are referring to Exodus 30:1-10 which speaks of Aaron burning incense on the altar twice a day. The altar was not inside the Holy of holies which contained only the ark of the covenant, but was placed in front of the veil (Exodus 30:6) outside of the Holy of Holies which was the innermost part of the temple (or Tabernacle in Aaron's day). The altar was in 'The Holy Place.' Not in 'The Holy of holies.' The Holy of holies was separated from the Holy Place by the veil. Refer to diagram below.


Bing Images

As clearly stated in Leviticus 16, Aaron was not to enter the Holy of holies (here referred to as 'the Holy Place inside the veil' but is actually a reference to the Holy of holies inside the veil where the ark of the covenant was) at any time or he would die (Lev. 16:2). The one exception was on the day of atonement.

The high priest was to burn the incense on the altar that was in the Holy Place in front of the veil which separated the Holy of holies from the Holy place. He was not to enter into the Holy of holies on the other side of the veil except for one day of the year. That day being the day of atonement.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by earl012

There is no son of God. God was Jesus, so, naturally, he would ascend into heaven. It is a difficult plight for humankind. No human has ascending into heaven.

Wrong. There are sons and daughters of God . . . all of us. Jesus was the first-born of us to be "born again" as Spirit upon His death as we will be upon ours. By bringing His Holy Spirit of perfect agape love to His human consciousness . . . He elevated all human consciousness and connected it with God's consciousness. THAT is how He is the Way to God. Without Jesus, all human consciousness would have remained separate from God's consciousness. To urge us to be sanctified under Christ's perfect agape love (Grace) and achieve cover for our imperfections, He instructed us to love God and each other every day and repent when we don't. Prior to Christ, we did not have any inner guidance, so the laws and scriptures were inadequate and failed us. That is why Christ abides within our consciousness as the Comforter (His Holy Spirit) sent in His name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."

[RomulusXXV]

Originally Posted by Fischerking

The original question was why people think they go immediately to Heaven or hell upon death. I think the answer is found in "tradition" as well as shoddy Bible study. As I understand the scriptures, a Christian who dies is "asleep in Christ"...to be awakened at the rapture. whats so hard about that?

Yes, that IS what the Bible states. So, anything else is, as you say, shoddy Bible study or traditional 'fluff' that has been merely accepted by traditional Christianity.

From out of the dust God formed a being (man). All Bible.

God then breathed into the man's nostrils and he sprang to life, i.e. he became a living soul. All Bible.

At death the breath of the deceased soul returns to God who gave it and the body again returns to dust. All Bible.

At the resurrection of life (Jesus' coming) the graves of the righteous will be opened and the breath of life returned to the one from whom it was taken. That being once again becomes a living soul but this time for all eternity. At this time all of the resurrected saints break into song singing the old spiritual "Dem Bones". You know the one ..."Knee bone connected to the thigh bone, thigh bone connected to the hip bone, etc. until all of the bones are connected. Simple!

Assuming that ANY of this makes sense to begin with, THIS is the most likely scenario ...simply play the tape forward, then play it backward, then play it forward again. Wallah!

Forget about all of this extra stuff about Paul or "what my church teaches" about this or that. Just stick to consistent Bible texts on the topic and you won't go too far wrong. That said ...happy resurrection everyone and welcome to eternal life!!

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I'm not surprised that you would choose to believe rabbinic literature over what the Scriptures themselves say, but the Scriptures are clear that entrance into the Holy of holies was to be only on the day of atonement.

You are referring to Exodus 30:1-10 which speaks of Aaron burning incense on the altar twice a day. The altar was not inside the Holy of holies which contained only the ark of the covenant, but was placed in front of the veil (Exodus 30:6) outside of the Holy of Holies which was the innermost part of the temple (or Tabernacle in Aaron's day). The altar was in 'The Holy Place.' Not in 'The Holy of holies.' The Holy of holies was separated from the Holy Place by the veil. Refer to diagram below.


Bing Images

As clearly stated in Leviticus 16, Aaron was not to enter the Holy of holies (here referred to as 'the Holy Place inside the veil' but is actually a reference to the Holy of holies inside the veil where the ark of the covenant was) at any time or he would die (Lev. 16:2). The one exception was on the day of atonement.

The high priest was to burn the incense on the altar that was in the Holy Place in front of the veil which separated the Holy of holies from the Holy place. He was not to enter into the Holy of holies on the other side of the veil except for one day of the year. That day being the day of atonement.

Again...You arrogantly state that you know Judaism better than the Jews themselves...You're wrong, so just deal with it...

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

We have to bear in mind that the writers were putting down their beliefs, and they hadn't died so didn't know. Luke's parable supposes that the poor man Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, third heaven or paradise and could still have a sight of Dives thirsting in perdition. Not very likely but needed for his story.

Spoken like a skeptic.

I always supposed there were three heavens and Paul went to have tea and a chat with Jesus in the heavenly parlour, while paradise was on the next floor with Abraham and the rest and God and his angels in the penthouse suite. It's all 'Heaven' and = paradise or the bosom of Abraham.

So why does John say that Jesus hadn't yet ascended to the father after resurrection?

You're referring to John 20:17.

Because at that time, He hadn't. He had only just been resurrected perhaps a few hours before Mary went to the tomb.

Why does Luke say that he had - and on the Friday together with the penitent thief?

You're referring to Luke 23:43 - 'today you will be with Me in Paradise.' This occurred immediately after Jesus died. It was before His resurrection three days later. And if Paradise was at that time in Hades, then He didn't go into the presence of the Father.

It is possible to try to work out various heavens, Abrahamic bosoms and paradises all in different locations in that postulated unseen world where heaven and hell is all one but somehow separate. But the probability is that John and Luke simply did not know what they were talking about.

They probably didn't have a full understanding of everything that they wrote. Nevertheless, I believe that under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit, what they wrote was accurate.

I rather regard the idea that the heavenly chariot was just ferrying Elijah to a different place on earth is again guesswork and more based on what suits a particular theological belief than what what seems likely (1).

Since other Scripture indicates that no one went to the third heaven until Jesus went to the cross, that seems to rule out Elijah being taken there. That pretty much leaves him being transported elsewhere on earth. As with just about everything else, people have various opinions on the subject.

I agree somewhat, by the way about the significance of the tearing of the temple veil. This signified that the presence of God had zoomed out of the temple in disgust at the death of Jesus and regarded the Jews as deserving of their fate.

This is nonsense of course as the Jews were nothing to do with Jesus' death and the Romans were everything to do with it and Jesus had to die as part of God's plan anyway.

The Romans did the actual crucifixion, but it was the Jewish Sanhedrin, with some exceptions among the members, that wanted Jesus dead. John says that Jesus was arrested by both Romans and officers of the Jews (John 18:12). Luke records Peter as telling the Jews that they had nailed Jesus to the cross by the hands of godless men (the Romans) (Acts 2:23).

Why - Jesus asked to be let off and God wouldn't have it. But that didn't matter to the Roman Greeks who wrote the account. The Jews (in their view) were in the wrong, rejectors and killers of Christ and deserving of everything they got, and never mind the logic.

The natural desire of Jesus' human heart was to avoid the suffering that was ahead of Him. In His anguish He asked the Father if the cup could pass from Him. But He knew He had to go to the cross. That was His primary reason for coming into the world. It was only natural however that He would be experiencing great conflict in His soul.

You seem to be implying that the Romans wrote the gospel accounts. If so . . . no. Church tradition is strong that the gospel accounts were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

(1) a p.s I take the point that Elijah was first with Ahab in the Northern kingdom around the 850's and then a denouncing letter came from him to Jehoram of Judah who was king a bit later. I can see in the context of John one might argue that Elijah simply got transported elsewhere. Somewhere in Judah? But evidently not as advisor to the king. Isn't it equally likely that Elijah wrote a letter in heaven and had an angel deliver it? Well, of course it isn't a problem for an old skeptic like me who sees much of the Bible as people just making stuff up.

However, this is all beside the point as, whenever Elijah, Moses and Abraham were taken up or were not, they were evidently in heaven or some place where they could come back and pose for photos on the mount of transfiguration. But John doesn't mention that amazing event, so that must mean that he didn't know anything about it and so could write airy claims about nobody has ascended to heaven.

It is invalid to assume that because John didn't write about the transfiguration he therefore didn't know about it. Indeed, John was one of the three disciples that witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus. John recorded certain things in his gospel account that were recorded in the synoptics, and some things that weren't. It wasn't his purpose to go over everything that had already been written about in the earlier synoptics.

Certainly Moses and Elijah had to still be alive, though not physically, in order to talk with Jesus during the transfiguration. Abraham wasn't present at that event.