If Jesus said no one has ascended to Heaven & David didnt ascend to Heaven, why do we think we will go when we die? (Gospels, Messiah)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Before the cross believers went to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) which at that time was in Sheol/Hades.
But Enoch went to be with God? He did not experience death? So Elija and Moses were allowed to leave "sheol / hades" to appear with Christ at the transfiguration?
For those reading the above, the only response needed is Acts 20:30
This is uncalled for. Mike is a good brother in Christ and just because he understands somethings differently then you then just remember how patient God was with you while you learned somethings. And I am not saying Mike is wrong in this matter or that you are right but I just making a point.
John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.
Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?
Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted false religious theories and philosophies as being Scripture. Jesus plainly taught at John 11 vs 11-14 that the dead are in a sleep-like state. So, the day Jesus died Jesus went to the Bible's temporary hell ( grave ) for the sleeping dead. Jesus stayed there until God resurrected the dead unconscious Jesus out of biblical hell - Acts 2:27; 3:15. Since Jesus had a spirit body before coming to earth then at his resurrection Jesus got back his spirit body to live in the heavens, but the majority of mankind will live again on earth.
David, Daniel ( Daniel 12:2,13), and John the Baptizer (Matthew 11:11 ) will have a future healthy physical resurrection awakened back to life on earth during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth when the people of Hebrews chapter 11 will also see the fulfillment of that resurrection promise to life forever on earth. -Heb. 11:13,39
But Enoch went to be with God? He did not experience death? So Elija and Moses were allowed to leave "sheol / hades" to appear with Christ at the transfiguration?
First of all, please remember the transfiguration was a ' VISION '- Matthew 17:9 - a preview picture of Matthew 25:31-32.
Since it was a ' vision ' they did Not leave their graves.
Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
Please keep in mind that about 3,000 years after Enoch's day Jesus said at John 3:13 - that No man ascended to heaven.
That would include Enoch.
That is in harmony with Hebrews chapter 11 that none of them received the fulfillment of God's promise. - Heb. 11:13,39
What was God's promise but about earth. See Genesis 21:3; 22:18 All families of earth would be blessed, and all nations of earth will be blessed. Blessed with the healing of earth's nations under Jesus' millennial rulership over earth.- Rev. 22:2
Enoch, like David, Daniel, John the Baptist, etc. are still asleep in the grave ( temporary biblical hell ) awaiting a future resurrection back to healthy live on earth - John 5:28-29 - they all died before Jesus paid the ransom price of his death,
so they will have the opportunity to live forever on a beautiful paradisaical earth forever and ever starting with Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus.
- Psalm 72:8, 12-14
If no one ascended to heaven, where did Elijah and Moses come from when they appeared with Christ?
Just then and where did Enoch go?
Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away
Genesis 5:24
All the other patriarchs DIED, Enoch we re told WAS NO MORE.
First: please remember Matthew 17:9 because the Transfiguration was Not a real happening but a ' VISION '.
It was a coming attraction, or a preview - Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 25:31-32 - of Jesus' future glory time.
The glory time, is the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth between the sheep and the goats.
The windstorm carried Elijah from one place on earth to another place on earth. - 2nd Chronicles 21 vs 12-15.
So, Elijah did Not die, but was still alive on earth and active as God's prophet 5 years later after the windstorm re-located him on earth.
Like with Moses, God simply disposed of Enoch's body - Hebrews 11:5; Deut. 34 vs 5-6; Jude verse 9
So, like all those of John 3:13 the people who died before Jesus died are still asleep in their graves ( temporary biblical hell )
until the thousand-year day when Jesus' millennial rulership will govern over earth.
That is why Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....
But Enoch went to be with God? He did not experience death? So Elija and Moses were allowed to leave "sheol / hades" to appear with Christ at the transfiguration?
Genesis 5:24 says only that God took him. Hebrews 11:5 says the same thing. The Greek word is μετατίθημι - metatithemi and can be translated as 'translated', 'transferred', 'changed'. Enoch did not see death, but was taken from the earth apart from death. Neither verse says where he was taken.
As for Elija and Moses, why not? The prophet Samuel was brought up in a vision with reference to the witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28).
Theologians have various views as to where 'Paradise' or 'Abraham's Bosom' was located before Jesus went to the cross. As I said, I base my view on what Jesus said in His parable in Luke 16:19-31. I think also that Tartarus is yet another compartment of Hades. Tartarus is where a particular group of fallen angels are currently confined until the day of their judgment (2 Peter 2:4).
But since the time that Jesus went to the cross Paradise is stated to now be located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. And believers when they physically die are said to be absent from the body (therefore a resurrection is not in view), and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). The resurrection of the believer's body is a future event.
This is uncalled for. Mike is a good brother in Christ and just because he understands somethings differently then you then just remember how patient God was with you while you learned somethings. And I am not saying Mike is wrong in this matter or that you are right but I just making a point.
I would say "Welcome to the WELS mindset" but I honestly don't know how much its really changed since my very conservative christian parents use to consider them extremists 20+ years ago. Many denominations will use any and all excuses to call someone a heretic and further isolate themselves from from any other denomination...personally I think they they Jesus' words on "narrow gate" and "lukewarm" too seriously or they just want to feel special Either way, ultimately its a sad, fearful, and unquestioning state of mind where they might likely be straping bombs to themselves if they just happened to be born into different religion.
Last edited by Jrhockney; 08-28-2015 at 03:33 PM..
The resurrection is indeed a future event at which time the soul will be reunited with the body. In the meantime the soul of the believer goes to heaven and the soul of the unbeliever goes to the torments side of hades.
As the KJV English says at Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20 the soul that sins: dies.
The soul is: mortal and Not death proof.
Adam was Not created as immortal. Adam could only continue living if he did Not break God's Law.
Adam ( All of Adam ) simply ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and ' returned ' back to non-life.
There was No postmortem penalty for father Adam just returning to the earth.
Jesus too taught the soul can be destroyed at Matthew 10:28 to be in fear of him which is able to destroy the soul.
That is also why 2nd Peter 3:9 gives only two choices of repent or perish ( be destroyed )
The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7
] [/b] However what I said is in accordance with Luke 16:19-31.
Please keep in mind Luke 16: 19-31 is Not a real happening but an illustration or a parable.
Jesus taught sleep in death -> John 11 vs 11-14
So, while the dead Jesus was in biblical hell then Jesus was in an unconscious sleeping state. - Acts 2:27; 3:15
Sleep in death is also taught in the old Hebrew Scriptures such as:
Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
As the KJV English says at Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20 the soul that sins: dies.
The soul is: mortal and Not death proof.
Adam was Not created as immortal. Adam could only continue living if he did Not break God's Law.
Adam ( All of Adam ) simply ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and ' returned ' back to non-life.
There was No postmortem penalty for father Adam just returning to the earth.
Jesus too taught the soul can be destroyed at Matthew 10:28 to be in fear of him which is able to destroy the soul.
That is also why 2nd Peter 3:9 gives only two choices of repent or perish ( be destroyed )
The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7
I have been over this with you a number of times in the past. The Bible does not teach soul sleep. Once again, the word translated as 'destroy' is 'apollumi' and need not be taken to mean cessation of existence, but can refer to a lost or ruined state. For instance, in the parable of the lost coin (Luke 15:8) the word for 'lost' is 'apollumi.' The coin was lost - apollumi. It did not cease to exist. The beast and the false prophet are said to still be alive and in torment even after having been in the lake of fire for a thousand years (This is still a future event) (Rev. 19:20-20:10). Obviously then they are not destroyed in the sense of no longer existing, but are in a ruined and lost state.
As for Ezekiel 18, the reference is not to eternal punishment but to temporal punishment of an individual.
And only Adam's body which was made from the dust of the ground would have, and eventually did return to dust. His soul went to Paradise when he died.
Again, as Matthew 10:28 plainly shows, the soul does not die when the body dies. It simply separates from the body.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Either way, ultimately its a sad, fearful, and unquestioning state of mind where they might likely be straping bombs to themselves if they just happened to be born into different religion.
