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Is dehumanizing people by reducing their lives and relationships to a sex act loving?
Well, of course it is, geekigirl ! You and I both know they think they are saving all the gays from going to hell so they have given themselves a permission slip to treat the LGBTQ community any way they please. Insert here.
Demonizing. Dehumanizing. Driving to suicide. Abandoning family members. Telling LGBTQ they have to change or else. All is A-OK once the Anti-Gay Brigade sets out to inflict their beliefs on people.
Of course Jesus didn't say a darned thing about homosexuals but they conveniently overlook that part once they decide to "Treat People Like Trash for Jesus!"
Last edited by DewDropInn; 03-15-2016 at 05:39 PM..
David and Johnathan were NOT lovers, their souls were knitted together, and unlike the New Age counterfeit that has sullied the meaning with "soul mate" nonsense, it means they had a SPIRITUAL covenant, exactly like when two or more are gathered in my name/nature, there I am in the midst of you.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to comprehend anything in the book except some of the milk, if you don't have the basics down of our compartmental make up, which is spirit, soul, and body, and understand that the Tabernacle is another witness to the Word that is written, and the Word that is of the creation.
The whole book is about G-d and His creation man and His message which He repeats to us over and over again, since He knew we were going to become DEAF, DUMB, BLIND, AND LAME in the process He designed for us to walk through, and would need to find Him again. Peace
LOVED him like a WOMAN...sounds like a SSM made in heaven..
“Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely!
In life and in death they were not divided;
they were swifter than eagles,
they were stronger than lions.
How the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle!
Jonathan lies slain upon your high places.
I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan;
Greatly beloved were you to me;
your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
(2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27)
Here it is in black and white. David states the love he shared with Jonathan was greater than what he had experienced with women. Have you ever heard a heterosexual man say he loved his male friend more than his wife? This goes well beyond deep friendship between two heterosexual men.
How about giving your (exegetical) take on Romans 1:21-27, Rbbi1? What we need to do in order to make any headway on this topic is to address, one by one, the Bible passages that Christians use to condemn homosexuality. Until we do we're just basically playing 'word ping-pong' without ever arriving at some kind of resolve. That is, of course, assuming that a resolve is what we want. After all, it's the scriptures that are claimed to drive mainstream Christianity's stance on the gay issue. So, let's discuss scripture. What do these scriptures really mean once all of the popular anti-gay fluff is removed? Most Christians, I would guess, wouldn't even know WHAT these particular scriptures say anyway. They've heard "God hates homosexuality" over and over and over from their church leaders and, like sheep, they've mindlessly taken it in.
Then again, maybe the anti-gay Christians would rather shy away from actually analyzing these 'clobber' scriptures. I mean, If it were to be discovered that nowhere in scripture is homosexuality condemned they would not only lose face but they would also be sorely limited to who they could now 'religiously' slur. This could be a lose/lose situation for them.
Anyway, how about it? What is Romans 1:21-27 actually talking about? I've already given my exegetical take on the passage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
And what if I showed you ALL OF IT, the root and the fruit, with an overview just going back 2 days/2000 years? You likely wouldn't be nearly as angry with me as another segment of the population, but what would it prove to YOU?
You are not an open door, you are a closed window, and you can't handle the truth, nor do you really want it, as the truth shatters windows. Truth is for ALL people that want to change themselves as the Lord does it, from the inside out, not the outside in. Pass.
We are flesh beings, but we live in a spiritual reality with spiritual principles that not only exist, but silently govern, and affect the flesh. Peace
Well, once all of the 'fluff' is removed all I get from the above response is, "I'm not willing to accept your challenge to discuss Romans 1:21-27 but would rather prefer to throw out rhetoric, subterfuge and insults.
So, you've given me a pass. I'll take that as your unwillingness to discuss the scripture in question since you probably know that taking an exegetical approach would weaken your alleged scriptural case against gay people. I trust that participants and lurkers alike will take note that neither you nor any of the other professed Christian 'anti-gays' on the board have taken up the gauntlet to ACTUALLY discuss and analyze the very scriptures that are used to condemn gay people. Since I'm not too interested in playing 'word ping-pong' and had rather hoped for some clarification on the 'clobber texts' of the Bible, I guess I don't have too much more to say. Except for this: Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality (per se) condemned!
Well, of course it is, geekigirl ! You and I both know they think they are saving all the gays from going to hell so they have given themselves a permission slip to treat the LGBTQ community any way they please. Insert here.
Demonizing. Dehumanizing. Driving to suicide. Abandoning family members. All is A-OK once the Anti-Gay Brigade sets out to inflict their beliefs on people.
Of course Jesus didn't say a darned thing about homosexuals but they conveniently overlook that part one they decide to "Treat People Like Trash for Jesus!"
As you know I have personal experience with all of these. It's only by the grace of God I survived my many suicide attempts. You know, I see all of these people here, who know full well the damage they are doing to people, and it reopens old wounds, and keeps some open that will never heal. But then people like you, and Trout, and just so many others are here, and you offer your friendship, love and encouragement. You stand by me, and so many others physically and spiritually brutalized by anti-LGBT animus, some too afraid to speak. You are our voice, and even though reaching people seems hopeless sometimes, that helps give me the strength to keep going. Thank you. <3
My eyes are leaking writing this, so if it's not completely coherent...well, you know.
More closed than you? I doubt it, especially given how you brushed off their request for an exegesis by essentially calling them biased.. Most likely, they use to think just like you until they actually researched it. If you think you have some kind of cosmic insight in to right or wrong just because you understand the scriptures a certain way, that in itself is dangerous and has only lead to bad things historically...like oppression of entire groups of people based on faulty understandings of verses...Just saying perhaps you shouldn't close your windows either when it comes to how you interpret scripture.
We apparently were writing at the same time, because I just accepted the offer to explain the texts. Anyway, pertaining to the first poster in question, they were of course biased, unless their posts denying the words of the word exist, are NOT to be taken into consideration.
As for my "cosmic insight". The SPIRIT is the interpreter to the Word. I have no predilection to it being one way or the other. Also, the Spirit sets the hearer and the DOER free, which is the exact opposite of what religion seeks to do, using the same Word. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Freedom is not rebelliousness, rebelliousness is as it's root, witchcraft, which is essentially self-will. Free in His Spirit, not in bondage to other spirits. Each time something is revealed and applied BY THE SPIRIT in us, we are set free of whatever that root was in our flesh. Be ye both a hearer and a doer of the Word.
And I'm not revealing it line upon line, which any casual observer can, I'm revealing principles that are literally hidden in plain sight FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION, in an unbroken thread, which by the very design and nature of it, make it IMPOSSIBLE for man to change it to suit him, BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE THE WHOLE BOOK.
For example, there is a thread of deliverance/salvation that runs like a red thread all the way from Genesis to Revelation. Now those exact words might not be employed by the Spirit in every chapter, but the principle is there, just as we see in Genesis where light is separated from darkness = deliverance, salvation. Get the picture? Peace
LOVED him like a WOMAN...sounds like a SSM made in heaven..
“Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely!
In life and in death they were not divided;
they were swifter than eagles,
they were stronger than lions.
How the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle!
Jonathan lies slain upon your high places.
I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan;
Greatly beloved were you to me;
your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
(2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27)
Here it is in black and white. David states the love he shared with Jonathan was greater than what he had experienced with women. Have you ever heard a heterosexual man say he loved his male friend more than his wife? This goes well beyond deep friendship between two heterosexual men.
Does it really? David had a heart that was after G-d, which means He wanted it to be his heart. Jesus had a disciple whom He loved. It's a TRUE shepherd's heart, the likes of which we've not seen since He walked here in shoe leather. The kind of love that lays down it's life for it's friend. He is the lover of our soul. Our soul is as His bride, and guess what? Men have souls, too. Peace
We apparently were writing at the same time, because I just accepted the offer to explain the texts. Anyway, pertaining to the first poster in question, they were of course biased, unless their posts denying the words of the word exist, are NOT to be taken into consideration.
As for my "cosmic insight". The SPIRIT is the interpreter to the Word. I have no predilection to it being one way or the other. Also, the Spirit sets the hearer and the DOER free, which is the exact opposite of what religion seeks to do, using the same Word. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Freedom is not rebelliousness, rebelliousness is as it's root, witchcraft, which is essentially self-will. Free in His Spirit, not in bondage to other spirits. Each time something is revealed and applied BY THE SPIRIT in us, we are set free of whatever that root was in our flesh. Be ye both a hearer and a doer of the Word.
And I'm not revealing it line upon line, which any casual observer can, I'm revealing principles that are literally hidden in plain sight FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION, in an unbroken thread, which by the very design and nature of it, make it IMPOSSIBLE for man to change it to suit him, BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE THE WHOLE BOOK.
For example, there is a thread of deliverance/salvation that runs like a red thread all the way from Genesis to Revelation. Now those exact words might not be employed by the Spirit in every chapter, but the principle is there, just as we see in Genesis where light is separated from darkness = deliverance, salvation. Get the picture? Peace
Right, that's why you say LGBT people, and by extension me, are demon possessed, and flat out refuse to see any other alternative. You're not biased at all!
[This post was originally directed at a person in the comment section of an
article related to Indiana's Religious Freedom bill. It's the first time I've
really gotten everything down, but I felt it was important for me to do, for him.
I wanted him to understand me. It started out as a short post in response, but
grew from there. It became way too much for a comment thread, so here it is.
Here's my story. ]
I've been reacting with the same aggression you've been using toward me, and it's
wrong. Instead of reacting, I need to be responding with love, as Christ would.
Let me tell you my story.
I knew at a very young age I should have been born with a female body. I could
never put that into words, that concept at the time was not known to me. I was
raised in a strict Christian environment, and having these thoughts were sinful,
and the worst kind of wrong. At least that is what I heard in church.
I internalized this sentiment, and it grew into a fierce hatred, most directed at
myself. I prayed to God to make this go away. I prayed for that a lot. I couldn't
be a girl, that was impossible, or so I thought. That hatred quickly over took
me, and when I was ten I tried to kill myself for the first time, because I
thought maybe I needed to do it myself, since God was not taking this away, or
letting me die, I needed to do it on my own. So I tried to hang myself in my
closet, but when I woke up later, the belt I used was hanging around my neck, and
I was laying half in and half out of a box in my closet. I stayed there for most
of my life, in that closet. Alone.
In my teens, I turned to booze and drugs. A lot of each. Nikki Six, a guitarist
for Motley Crue overdosed a few times. At the height of my drug use, had he have
known me, he would have told me to slow down and save some for him. It was that
bad, but it kept me numb, which in turn kept me alive.
In my mid twenties, I think I was 24 or so I was at the end of my rope, again. I
was tired of being strung out all the time, tired of trying so hard to "act like
a man" and failing terribly, tired of dating other women trying to prove to
myself that I could do it, essentially using them to try to "be a guy." They
usually ended because I wouldn't have sex, the very idea of using that thing made
me sick.
So I was standing on an over pass one day, I was going to jump, the cars
on the freeway below were going pretty fast, I figured it would be over pretty
quick. I was finishing a cigarette when this uber preppy looking guy in this
crappy red Nova pulled up. I mention these, because he looked so out of place in
that car, it was kind of funny, like an 80 year old guy in a Corvette. His name
is Bill. He's a great guy, I still consider him one of my best friends, even
though we haven't spoken in years. We lost touch a long time ago, and I really
have no idea how to find him. Anyway, he and his wife were driving on the
freeway. He didn't even see me, but God knew I was there, and told Bill I was
getting ready to jump, so Bill, and his wife Jayne (with that spelling, I'm
telling you those two did not belong in that car haha) got off the freeway, and
came to talk to me.
I couldn't tell them why exactly I was going to jump, so I
blamed it on the drugs, which was true, but not the whole truth. I wasn't ready
to even admit it to myself. I knew that God wasn't going to let me kill myself,
no matter what I tried to do, so that was my last attempt, I think. There were so
many attempts really, it's hard to keep them straight chronologically, and the
drugs kind of affected my memory, so that's kind of shot.
I stayed with them for about a year or so, and got off drugs for awhile,
but the pressure I was under was too much, so I relapsed.
I stayed drugged until I was 35 or 36, when I moved close to my Mom, she had
uterine cancer, and I wanted to be close to her. God helped her beat it, she's
doing really well now, we talk on the phone occasionally, but it's strained.When
I was 38 I was tired of everything, life, trying to live up to everyone's
expectations of me, and I begged God to take this from me or let me die.
I knew that coming out would cause me to lose my family, which had been everything to me
for as long as I could remember, I come from an incredibly tight knit family, we
got together several times a year, we'd come from all over the country and gather
at a state park, or Grandpa's house. I loved those reunions, and huge holiday
dinners. Poker, football, food and beer, you know. I never got into drinking
much, I hate hangovers, but most of my family members are drinkers. Socially, not
drunks, you know. I didn't think I'd survive losing them. But something had to give.
I emailed a close friend, and came out to her, sort of to say good bye, I really
wanted to die. I apologized for not being honest about who I really am inside,
and for causing her pain. We were married about maybe 15 or 16 years before that.
I may have been 24 or 25. It lasted a year. She's really the only person I've
genuinely loved and trusted. Her name is Michelle. She wrote back about a week
later, and told me that I was moving in with her and her family (Her husband, and
boys), and she was going to help me come out and get through this. If I didn't
come out, and live authentically, I didn't want to live at all. So I moved here,
and got into therapy, and slowly started to come out.
I begged God for him to tell me his plan for me, and he's opened doors that I
could never open on my own. Forgiving my Dad being one of those things. He was
incredibly abusive when I was young. He used to beat me with a 2x4. I carried
intense anger for him through most of my life, and one night I was on my bed
smoking out my window (cigarettes...tobacco, not pot), and I just started
sobbing, uncontrollably. I had no idea why. I honestly felt like my heart was
breaking. I was in a panic because I had no idea where it was all coming from.
I realized later after I calmed down that it was 40 years of pain leaving me. It
was just gone. I know that God took it from me, it's the only rational
explanation.
The hate and anger I carried with me through my life was gone, in that moment.
God said I didn't need that anymore. So he took it from me.
I came out to my Mom a few months later, she told the rest of the family, and
they all agreed that they didn't want me home over holidays, they didn't want to
see me. As much as that hurt, God led me through it. That footsteps poem comes to
mind. He really did carry me through it, literally. My friends also surrounded me
and walked beside me too.
Through that process, I slowly began to accept and respect myself, which turned into love. About maybe a year ago was the first time in my life I genuinely loved myself. Which in turn enabled me to love God more deeply, which of course deepened our relationship.
He's guided me every step in the coming out and transitioning process. I know he is with me. When we talk, I feel him physically. I finally have the relationship with him, and Christ that I
have always wanted.
Growing up in the church, I had seen so many great people of
faith, and I wanted what they had. I begged God for that, but until I was ready
to be honest with myself, and live accordingly, my entire life would be a lie,
and God can't move in a person's life, if they can't even be honest with
themselves.
So that's where I am today, very much a woman, and very much a sold out Jesus
Freak, and loving each new day that he gives me. The pain of living in a male
body isn't lessened, but I know God is moving me toward healing, and I can be
patient, and know that my healing will be complete on his schedule, and he's
handling it, it's all more than I can handle on my own, so I just let him take
care of that.
I saw my Mom last year, for the first time in three years. She came
to see me. My family still doesn't want to see me, and I know it was hard on Mom
to see me, but she did it anyway. So I know God is healing that too. But that's
probably going to take awhile. It's ok though. I can wait. If I can at least talk
to Mom on the phone every couple weeks or so, I can live with that.
Right, that's why you say LGBT people, and by extension me, are demon possessed, and flat out refuse to see any other alternative. You're not biased at all!
I never said any such thing, you're twisting my words and trying to make them exclusive to gays to muddy the water and denigrate me. Don't.
But if the Lord can rebuke Peter for having a devil, what makes you think the rest of us, don't? What do you think Jesus meant when He said "the prince of this world cometh, BUT he hath nothing in me" (as opposed to the rest of mankind), or " because he knew what was in man" ?
What I AM telling you is what happened in the garden, and how the tabernacle structure is and how it reflects the pattern, and your own body reflects the pattern and all of creation reflects the pattern, and that we ALL, ALL, ALL, received the same thing, a serpent in the garden, and what we can and are supposed to do about it. It's the SAME SERPENT, it doesn't matter how it moves the flesh, it still moves the flesh, and it usurps the Holy Spirit's right to move the flesh. We're supposed to be HIS TEMPLE.
It's a pattern the creator of heaven and earth created and the pattern exists whether you or I or anyone else for that matter, believe it, or even agree with it. It is what it is. So you can either accept the pattern and use it for your benefit, or let the snakes overrun the garden, the planting of the Lord, that YOU ARE. The choice is yours.
And like snakes like to do when you don't cut their head off, it multiplied and by the time it got to the timeline in Revelation, it became a dragon and the dragon's time is just about up. Peace
We apparently were writing at the same time, because I just accepted the offer to explain the texts.
LOL, weird timing. Interesting response to my post but if I'm understanding you correctly (I"m in a bit of a hurry) I think it begs the question: Who decides what is "evil biased witchcraft laden rebelliousness?" The Pope? Martin Luther? The popular Christian opinion of the day? You?.. Questioning an understanding and or translation of scripture is not evil by default even if it is a little rebellious at times and rebellion against the popular view of the day is often require to achieve the best understanding. Anyways, I hope to see your response to RomulusXXV soon...you may find there are many things about Romans 1 that are not as cut and dry as they might seem once the historical and moral context is understood.
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