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Just thought I'd ask this question as I've been thinking about it a lot myself lately. Why is it that God's grace, his lovingkindness and mercy - is taken as a weakness? I'm finding that myself included, as well as many others within this planet, seem to think that just because God has extended his grace to mankind - that means that we are no longer obligated to carry our crosses and serve the Lord, or obey the commands.
I think that God is a loving God, and truly does want all to be saved - but are we really accepting his gift of salvation, if we continue to live a life full of willful sin?
Interesting in knowing your thoughts on this...
I am not sure why this question is directed towards universalists either, Stephen. The belief in the eventual restoration of all does not suggest that individuals continue to live a life of willful sin to abuse the grace of God. What is our response to the sacrifice of Christ? Does it mean that we thumb our noses as Him and do as we please? Christ died for us that we die to sin and live for Him. There is to be a change in our lives. As a Universalist Christian, I believe in the judgments of God and that there are consequences for disobedience. I also believe that all will one day see the error of their ways and be reconciled to the Creator. There will be those who seek to abuse the grace of God. This does not mean that universalism teaches this. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-09-2008 at 04:28 PM..
I am not sure why this question is directed towards universalists either, Stephen. The belief in the eventual restoration of all does not suggest that individuals continue to live a life of willful sin to abuse the grace of God. What is our response to the sacrifice of Christ? Does it mean that we thumb our noses as Him and do as we please? Christ died for us that we die to sin and live for Him. There is to be a change in our lives. As a Universalist Christian, I believe in the judgments of God and that there are consequences for disobedience. I also believe that all will one day see the error of their ways and be reconciled to the Creator. There will be those who seek to abuse the grace of God. This does not mean that universalism teaches this. God bless.
Hey Shana,
Thanks for the response. I guess my problem with the concept of universalism is that there seems to be no existence of hell/eternal consequences within it's doctrine - or specifically it states that all who deny righteousnous will be brought back and reconciled once again to live in righteousnous with their creator.
Scripture teaches us the opposite of this doctrine, as it teaches the existence of eternal punishment, as well as states that when we deny the Lord(who is righteousnous) - he will deny us.
In the doctrine of universalism - it almost seems like the gift of grace takes the form of an anarchic doctrine, or specifically - it allows one to willfully disobey for as long as they want and not have any reverence for their creator - and still be in effect accepting the gift of grace God has given to all mankind.
This is not to say that all who are universalists believe what I've listed above, but it is to say that the above universalist beliefs do indeed contradict what is found in scripture.
As always, thanks for responding. In Christ and God bless.
I am not sure why this question is directed towards universalists either, Stephen. The belief in the eventual restoration of all does not suggest that individuals continue to live a life of willful sin to abuse the grace of God. What is our response to the sacrifice of Christ? Does it mean that we thumb our noses as Him and do as we please? Christ died for us that we die to sin and live for Him. There is to be a change in our lives. As a Universalist Christian, I believe in the judgments of God and that there are consequences for disobedience. I also believe that all will one day see the error of their ways and be reconciled to the Creator. There will be those who seek to abuse the grace of God. This does not mean that universalism teaches this. God bless.
Simple. Grace is unconditional and that is what most folk do not understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleton
Hey Shana,
--snip--
Scripture teaches us the opposite of this doctrine, as it teaches the existence of eternal punishment, as well as states that when we deny the Lord(who is righteousnous) - he will deny us.
Wrong, man-made lies teaches the opposite.
Quote:
In the doctrine of universalism - it almost seems like the gift of grace takes the form of an anarchic doctrine, or specifically - it allows one to willfully disobey for as long as they want and not have any reverence for their creator - and still be in effect accepting the gift of grace God has given to all mankind.
BTW, there is no doctrine of UR. It is you that assumes one willfully disobeys and anyway that disobedience is to what you believe in the first place.
Quote:
This is not to say that all who are universalists believe what I've listed above, but it is to say that the above universalist beliefs do indeed contradict what is found in scripture.
Even Shana and I do not agree 100% yet we do not tackle or make insidious claims about one another
It appears to contradict primarily IMO because some cannot consider the possibility. We show that hell means Gehenna, defunct, or hades aka the grave, the context in which Jesus spoke of hell, the fact that the epistles contain only one reference to hell, the origins of a pagan hell, the origins of the word hell. Yet in spite of all we try share it is dismissed, why?
It challenges the very foundation of your belief - that is the fact.
The foundation should be Christ and not being saved from hell. You may asked what am I saved from then or was I really saved in the first place?
You were not saved from what or saved to escape either hell or the myth of a rapture. You were saved for a purpose.
I hate using the term saved as enlightened is a better word IMO as all are saved already though Christ.
We view many things differently not because we were taught that way but rather though intensive study and revelation. I have only one account where an Atheist became Christian through the teachings of UR, not to say there are not more. 99.99% of us come out of the harlot system of the church and that does not mean RCC only. Even Atheists debate us from a standpoint of ET teachings, ironic is it not?
We do not take His Grace for granted, we espouse His Grace but we know it is in spite of us and our sins.
Simple. Grace is unconditional and that is what most folk do not understand.
Wrong, man-made lies teaches the opposite.
BTW, there is no doctrine of UR. It is you that assumes one willfully disobeys and anyway that disobedience is to what you believe in the first place.
Even Shana and I do not agree 100% yet we do not tackle or make insidious claims about one another
It appears to contradict primarily IMO because some cannot consider the possibility. We show that hell means Gehenna, defunct, or hades aka the grave, the context in which Jesus spoke of hell, the fact that the epistles contain only one reference to hell, the origins of a pagan hell, the origins of the word hell. Yet in spite of all we try share it is dismissed, why?
It challenges the very foundation of your belief - that is the fact.
The foundation should be Christ and not being saved from hell. You may asked what am I saved from then or was I really saved in the first place?
You were not saved from what or saved to escape either hell or the myth of a rapture. You were saved for a purpose.
I hate using the term saved as enlightened is a better word IMO as all are saved already though Christ.
We view many things differently not because we were taught that way but rather though intensive study and revelation. I have only one account where an Atheist became Christian through the teachings of UR, not to say there are not more. 99.99% of us come out of the harlot system of the church and that does not mean RCC only. Even Atheists debate us from a standpoint of ET teachings, ironic is it not?
We do not take His Grace for granted, we espouse His Grace but we know it is in spite of us and our sins.
Blessings
The bible doesn't specifically describe what Hell is, but it does mention the possibility we all can indeed face eternal separation from God if his grace isn't manifest or shown as being active within our lives. Since God encompasses all that is fully Loving, I can imagine any seperation from him in entirety for all eternity would be rather nightmarish. I think the preaching of no separation from God's Grace(or Hell) is possible, is a false doctrine. As the bible does indeed state that he will at some point separate himself from all of those who deny him.
The bible doesn't specifically describe what Hell is, but it does mention the possibility we all can indeed face eternal separation from God if his grace isn't manifest or shown as being active within our lives. Since God encompasses all that is fully Loving, I can imagine any seperation from him in entirety for all eternity would be rather nightmarish. I think the preaching of no separation from God's Grace(or Hell) is possible, is a false doctrine. As the bible does indeed state that he will at some point separate himself from all of those who deny him.
In Christ,
Stephen
You are being too vague here. How can all deny Him if all have not heard of Him?
I am glad to see you use "I think", "I believe" and that is far better than someone coming right out and say "It is"
If God is Omnipresent, how can He separate Himself from anything?
The bible doesn't specifically describe what Hell is, but it does mention the possibility we all can indeed face eternal separation from God if his grace isn't manifest or shown as being active within our lives. Since God encompasses all that is fully Loving, I can imagine any seperation from him in entirety for all eternity would be rather nightmarish. I think the preaching of no separation from God's Grace(or Hell) is possible, is a false doctrine. As the bible does indeed state that he will at some point separate himself from all of those who deny him.
In Christ,
Stephen
Search= eternal separation
Quote:
Your search query for 'eternal separation' has yielded no results. Please modify your query and try again.
Stephen: do you really believe that the Father of all fathers who is omnipresent (there is nowhere He is not) will separate eternally any of His disobedient children? The purpose of punishment is for one purpose, and one purpose only: change and transformation.
"Nothing shall separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Not death, not life, not principalities, not powers, there is nothing that can separate us from the Love of God enshrouded within the Living God. Nothing!
'I have loved thee with an everlasting love.' You can never translate that word "everlasting" into English. It simply means that you have got into the spaceless, boundless realm, you have fallen out of time to where time is no more. You have gone out into that mysterious something where nothing can be taken hold of as tangible, it is all beyond you, beyond your grasp, beyond your calculation, beyond your power to cope with it and bring it into some kind of dimensions. That is the word: beyond you, beyond your time, beyond your world, beyond all your ways of thinking and working. 'I have loved thee with an everlasting, timeless, spaceless love.' Did you notice the alternative marginal reading to the phrase? 'Jehovah appeared of old unto me'? It is, 'from afar appeared unto me' - outside of our world altogether. He says, 'I have loved you with a love altogether outside your dimensions of time and space.' -G.Campbell Morgan-
"Whither shall I go from Your spirit, or whither shall I flee from our presence? If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in sh@'owl behold You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall Your hand lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me. If I say, surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yes, the darkness hides not from You; but the night shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You."
Nothing shall separate the groaning ktisis (the whole of created life) from His love!
Not tribulation or distress!~
Not Persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword!~
Not death!~
Not life!~
Not angels!~
Not principalities, nor powers!~
Not height nor depth!~
Not any creature.....nothing created!~
"NOTHING shall be able to separate us from the love of God revealed to us by/in/through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
You are being too vague here. How can all deny Him if all have not heard of Him?
I am glad to see you use "I think", "I believe" and that is far better than someone coming right out and say "It is"
If God is Omnipresent, how can He separate Himself from anything?
Blessings
To be quite frank - I'm not entirely sure what to deny him in entirety means. Scriptures say that in essence to deny him means to not acknowledge the sacrafice of Christ for the remission of one's sins.
Now as to whether or not an acknowledgement of Christ being my savior by words, works, etc - etc means that to God I have truly acknowledged him and received this remission is beyond me to discern.
My own thought process is that in one having truly accepted the gift of grace/Christ in their lives - it's a combination of all of these things, as well as God being the final decider as to whether or not to extend his grace upon a person.
In answer to your omnipresent question, the answer is again - I don't know. I do know all things are possible to God, as this is what scripture tells me. God is omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent - so who's to say what he can/can't do? There's a certain level of understanding that we in our human bodies just won't possess until we are with him for eternity. And even then I'm not entirely sure if everyone in the kingdom will possess all of the same knowledge, as there will be those who are greater - and those who are considered least. Vessels of honour, and vessels of dishonour.
To be quite frank, it's really better that we are not able to understand all of these things at this juncture within life, as Christ himself said - much of what he has not revealed to us as of yet, would be more than our limited minds could bear.
Search= eternal separation
Stephen: do you really believe that the Father of all fathers who is omnipresent (there is nowhere He is not) will separate eternally any of His disobedient children? The purpose of punishment is for one purpose, and one purpose only: change and transformation.
The life that we live in now is where the change and transformation begins in Christ, from that point on we are in a constant process of sanctification - until God himself at some point intercedes and makes himself one with us again - removing all of the remaining imperfect. Or as scripture states - when the perfect comes, the imperfect disappears.
The bible doesn't specifically describe what Hell is, but it does mention the possibility we all can indeed face eternal separation from God if his grace isn't manifest or shown as being active within our lives. Since God encompasses all that is fully Loving, I can imagine any seperation from him in entirety for all eternity would be rather nightmarish. I think the preaching of no separation from God's Grace(or Hell) is possible, is a false doctrine. As the bible does indeed state that he will at some point separate himself from all of those who deny him.
In Christ,
Stephen
Stephen,
The bible calls him the God of the ages. He is workig out his restoration of creation through the ages. Nowhere in scripture does it say hell is forever or eternal. Your english translated bible uses the the word eternal but that is not the greek word that is used. The greek word that is used is aion and it means age. A period of time with a beginning and an end. Have you ever wondered why some people may only get 13 years on this earth to make the right choice but choose wrong and end up in a burning trash heap FOREVER? 13 years and a wrong choice will get you an ETERNITY in fiery flames of torment? Someone else may live 100 years and make the wrong choice but do a 180 and make the right choice on their death bed and they get an ETERNITY in paradise. Plus people who have never heard of the name Jesus or who grow up in a muslim country etc. compared to people who grow up in a christian home..do they have a fair chance to make a right choice? We all know it does not make sense. So what do we say...oh well we know God is fair! Can you understand how this thinking turns people away from God. I hear this argument all the time from non-believers. They have this notion of God because this is what the church espouses. ET believers will say that UR does damage to christianity but it is really obviously the opposite. Non-believers can not reconsile a God of love sending children and young teenagers to the same place someone like Hitler is going or send people who have never heard of Jesus to that same place. The church has no response to that because quite frankly there is none. They can only offer..oh well..God is just. That may seem just to you but not unbelievers. But when you understand some will be saved in the next age just like you were in this age then it makes sense. God is the fire. He is the consuming fire..we read that in sacripture. No one says there will not be consequences. But ET believers simply cannot get that out of their head. No matter how many times it is said they still think Ur espouses no consequences for actions. God will not send most of your friends and loved ones that you know in this life,stephen, to some burning trash dump to be burned alive with literal flames and then let you and everyone else forget about them. The God of love that I know will not do that to any human being that he has created. Think of a friend or loved one who is not a christian and imagine them burning and crying out in agony in some trash heap and no one caring or rememebering them? Is your answer..oh well,,they had their chance?
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