I don't understand why homosexuals have to twist the bible into saying its OK to be gay (crucify, believers)
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No there aren't plenty. There are 2 verses in the Old Testament that supposedly mention it, and 3 in the NT, 2 of which are duplicates. That's maybe 5 verses mentioning the issue, out of 37,000 in the Bible. And every single one of them has problems with the hermeneutics.
For how obsessed you guys are with this topic, and how you think it's pretty much the worst sin imaginable, the topic makes up 0.0001% of the Bible's subject matter. Not even Jesus felt it was worth discussing, so he never even brings it up.
Jesus never spoke against having sex with children or animals so I guess that wasn't worth discussing either and not really much of a sin huh?
And then you have this verse:
18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
Matthew 15:18-20
So prove to me that "sexual immorality" does not include homosexuality here. Words directly from Jesus.
All we have been shown are examples of bible tampering to make it say that homosexuality is a 'sin' or abomination. Someone even posted a quote from their bible that actually used the words "homosexual"! That only proves our claim that the bible has been tampered with.
A number of the post-1946 Bibles contain the word "homosexual" without any real justification for the authors having done so. There are no Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek words used in the original texts that equate to the term. And, many Christians believe it to be an authentic scriptural condemnation of homosexuality and use this corruption of scripture at every opportunity. Prior to 1946 - and, someone, please correct me with actual facts if I'm wrong - there was no scriptural condemnation of homosexuals. So, what does this tell you?
Jesus never spoke against having sex with children or animals so I guess that wasn't worth discussing either and not really much of a sin huh?
Seeing as marrying children was pretty much the norm back then, it wasn't viewed as bad or taboo. Mary was likely 13-14 when she had Jesus, which by our standards would be wrong.
Quote:
18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
Matthew 15:18-20
So prove to me that "sexual immorality" does not include homosexuality here. Words directly from Jesus.
One can't prove a negative. You have the burden of proof to show that sexual immorality includes same-sex consensual relationships.
What's your view on Jesus' discussion of Eunuchs? Do you think they are only castrated men?
Your beliefs are a perversion. Homosexuality is quite normal for a subset of the entire animal population.
My beliefs are from the word of God. Are you saying God is a perversion? I don't care if homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom. We're not animals! Animals eat their young too. Perfectly normal to do, right? Besides many of the examples of homosexual animal behavior have to do more with male dominance roles, not true same sex intimacy and desire.
Seeing as marrying children was pretty much the norm back then, it wasn't viewed as bad or taboo. Mary was likely 13-14 when she had Jesus, which by our standards would be wrong.
You completely ignored my point. Typical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero
One can't prove a negative. You have the burden of proof to show that sexual immorality includes same-sex consensual relationships.
What's your view on Jesus' discussion of Eunuchs? Do you think they are only castrated men?
You're the one making the claim. And it's based on a fallacy called argument from silence. In other words, you want people to believe that just because there isn't a verse in the Bible where Jesus specifically speaks against homosexuality then that means He supported it.
I don't have to take on the burden of proof. All that is needed is a possibility that Jesus was including homosexuality in this broad scope term. As long as that possibility exists, you can't claim in any way that Christ supported homosexuality. Besides, how do you know Christ didn't speak against it, and it was just never wrote down? John explains that Christ did a LOT of things we don't see in the Bible:
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."
My beliefs are from the word of God. Are you saying God is a perversion? I don't care if homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom. We're not animals! Animals eat their young too. Perfectly normal to do, right? Besides many of the examples of homosexual animal behavior have to do more with male dominance roles, not true same sex intimacy and desire.
No of course not. Only animals bleed, defecate, mate - not humans. We are not animals, no.
Just one question though - what are we if not animals? I mean, an animal by definition (man's definition), is a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli.
Disgusting garbage lies. I told you I am fed up with this "you are a closet gay person" crap. It's petty, baseless and arrogant. DROP IT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Disgusting response. I was referring to submitting to accepting homosexuality and gay marriage as being just as normal and good as heterosexual. It's not. It's a perversion.
Your views that you wish to impose on our entire society are what are truly petty, baseless and arrogant. We do not live in a Theocracy and we do not intend to, so your God's laws have nothing to do with society's laws, period.
Nobody cares whether or not you consider SSM normal or not. Nobody cares that you consider male on male sex a perversion. Just mind your own business and do not pretend your religious freedoms are violated if you are prevented from mistreating or discriminating against homosexuals. You have NO freedom to mistreat or discriminate against them.
No there aren't plenty. There are 2 verses in the Old Testament that supposedly mention it, and 3 in the NT, 2 of which are duplicates. That's maybe 5 verses mentioning the issue, out of 37,000 in the Bible. And every single one of them has problems with the hermeneutics.
For how obsessed you guys are with this topic, and how you think it's pretty much the worst sin imaginable, the topic makes up 0.0001% of the Bible's subject matter. Not even Jesus felt it was worth discussing, so he never even brings it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Jesus never spoke against having sex with children or animals so I guess that wasn't worth discussing either and not really much of a sin huh?
Fiyero made some very valid points that anti-gay Christians usually avoid for pretty obvious reasons. You know yourself, Jeff, that the topic of homosexuality has been beaten up by mainstream Christianity WAY beyond reason. One WOULD think that Jesus would certainly have spoken of the 'evils' of homosexuality that would eventually lead to divisions within the future Christian Church. But, He didn't. That must really irk anti-gay Christians ...!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
And then you have this verse:
18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
Matthew 15:18-20
So prove to me that "sexual immorality" does not include homosexuality here. Words directly from Jesus.
Perhaps homosexuality is included in the 'sexual immorality' spoken of by Jesus. But, here is the same passage from the KJV which reads slightly different:
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
I'm not necessarily disputing that promiscuous sex is probably not a good thing for either homosexuals or heterosexuals but, yet again, we're (*sigh*) dealing here with interpretation of words. The part that I've bolded above is the word "fornications" which has been translated in the more modern Bibles as "sexual immorality". Below is the the Strong's Concordance definition of the word:
porneia: fornication
Original Word: πορνεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: porneia
Phonetic Spelling: (por-ni'-ah)
Short Definition: fornication, idolatry
Definition: fornication, whoredom; met: idolatry.
HELPS Word-studies
4202 porneía (the root of the English terms "pornography, pornographic"; cf. 4205 /pórnos) which is derived from pernaō, "to sell off") – properly, a selling off (surrendering) of sexual purity; promiscuity of any (every) type.
Yet again, here we have major references to harlotry and idolatry, although the 'surrendering of sexual purity' is given a brief mention.
MANY heterosexual people, MANY heterosexual Christians have 'surrendered their sexual purity' at some time or another. We all accept this. We have to accept this. And so this 'sin' cannot be held against them indefinitely any more than can the similar 'sin' of homosexuals having 'surrendered their sexual purity'. For heterosexuals, however, the marriage certificate somehow cancels out the former 'sin' and it's not spoken of again. But, but not so for homosexuals. Yet another question, Jeff ...why so?
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