Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not exactly. Once we accept Christ, we're forgiven forever. To mature spiritually, we must confess when we fail.
And, this too, is a doctrine of men. A large group of Christians do not believe in OSAS. If you would like to read an extremely conservative pastor's opinion try reading Salvation Is More Complicated Than You Think, by Alan Stanley, an Australian pastor who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the most, if not THE most, conservative seminaries in the world. Dr. Stanley goes through all the Scripture on both sides of the debate.
As an example he gives Paul's warning in Galatians 5:19-21 to those Christians who live practicing "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, factions and envy; drunkenness and orgies, and the like, I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
In Ephesians 5:5 he follows up on the theme: "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person--such a man is an idolator--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
The dichotomies of Scripture allow both sides of the issue to make their point. I have no problem with that. What does rile me is when one side or the other insists that only their side is right. To me it's obvious that we need to run the good race, and work out our salvation in fear and trembling--in other words we must persevere. But certainly one can cherry pick "By grace are you saved through faith, not of works lest any man should boast."
We don't understand it because God was correct when He inspired Paul to write "grace saved through faith," and He was correct when He inspired Paul to warn that "no immoral, impure, or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of God."
By analogy Jesus is both God and human--both at the same time although "human" is a term that hardly fits God!
God speaks to us in the situation we are in. The Galatians were in one situation and the Romans in another. God spoke to that situation where Romans tried to work their way to heaven and He spoke to the Galatians in a different manner because they were satisfied they could accept Jesus and live the same way they did before (which is what we see from many, many American Christians--foremost among them fundamentalist believers. On these very religious threads one GldnRule, who claims to be a pornographer, has stated Christians are some of his best customers!!
So by grace are we saved. "But Jesus stated: Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:12-13)
I guarantee you that liberal Christians know their Bibles much better than conservative ones. Because we will read Scripture in parallel in order to compare, and fundamentalists prefer to dwell on whatever Scripture they are currently adoring without ever seeing if opposing views are stated in that Book.
The point of all this was not to uphold or reject OSAS, but to point out how reasonable men and women can reach opposite views, then become immediately unreasonable when arguing the point with the other side.
^This thread also demonstrated the liberal theologians' ability to hold opposing views of some of the details of traditional Christian beliefs; e.g., the virgin birth, and yet agree that such details do not mean one or the other is condemned for not adhering to an exact dogma. We are free to search and question and to learn from one another without worrying about someone running for the kindling, stake, and matches. (OK, I've been reading Hilary Mantel's series on Thomas Cromwell...)
^This thread also demonstrated the liberal theologians' ability to hold opposing views of some of the details of traditional Christian beliefs; e.g., the virgin birth, and yet agree that such details do not mean one or the other is condemned for not adhering to an exact dogma. We are free to search and question and to learn from one another without worrying about someone running for the kindling, stake, and matches. (OK, I've been reading Hilary Mantel's series on Thomas Cromwell...)
Yes. It is a bit of a tightrope. In some ways, cherry -picking the Bible (and even Dogma, see ET vs UR) is a cop -out and really the "Ghost Bible" in an almost blasphemous form. "God's word doesn't suit us, we had better rewrite it for him". it obviously has advantages because it means you can hang onto some form of Bible -based belief rather than have to reject it altogether.
That is why I have a grudging respect for the stubborn literalist who will not compromise on what the Bible says, though I can get on better with those who will regard the Bible as containing large chunks that are open to negotiation.
I just think myself lucky that I don't have that problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
And, this too, is a doctrine of men. A large group of Christians do not believe in OSAS. If you would like to read an extremely conservative pastor's opinion try reading Salvation Is More Complicated Than You Think, by Alan Stanley, an Australian pastor who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the most, if not THE most, conservative seminaries in the world. Dr. Stanley goes through all the Scripture on both sides of the debate.
As an example he gives Paul's warning in Galatians 5:19-21 to those Christians who live practicing "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, factions and envy; drunkenness and orgies, and the like, I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
In Ephesians 5:5 he follows up on the theme: "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person--such a man is an idolator--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
The dichotomies of Scripture allow both sides of the issue to make their point. I have no problem with that. What does rile me is when one side or the other insists that only their side is right. To me it's obvious that we need to run the good race, and work out our salvation in fear and trembling--in other words we must persevere. But certainly one can cherry pick "By grace are you saved through faith, not of works lest any man should boast."
We don't understand it because God was correct when He inspired Paul to write "grace saved through faith," and He was correct when He inspired Paul to warn that "no immoral, impure, or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of God."
By analogy Jesus is both God and human--both at the same time although "human" is a term that hardly fits God!
God speaks to us in the situation we are in. The Galatians were in one situation and the Romans in another. God spoke to that situation where Romans tried to work their way to heaven and He spoke to the Galatians in a different manner because they were satisfied they could accept Jesus and live the same way they did before (which is what we see from many, many American Christians--foremost among them fundamentalist believers. On these very religious threads one GldnRule, who claims to be a pornographer, has stated Christians are some of his best customers!!
So by grace are we saved. "But Jesus stated: Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:12-13)
I guarantee you that liberal Christians know their Bibles much better than conservative ones. Because we will read Scripture in parallel in order to compare, and fundamentalists prefer to dwell on whatever Scripture they are currently adoring without ever seeing if opposing views are stated in that Book.
The point of all this was not to uphold or reject OSAS, but to point out how reasonable men and women can reach opposite views, then become immediately unreasonable when arguing the point with the other side.
Thank you. I find it constantly astonishing (even though I have known about the "Ghost Bible" for decade) that the dogma that Faith will guarantee you heaven no matter how you act seems to be adhered to, even though it is there in print that Paul says that misbehaving will bar you.
It's clear that he is talking to his churches and is debunking his own original thesis (Romans) that faith in Jesus is all you need for salvation and he assumes that such a faith is going to turn everyone into plaster saints. He then finds out that this in not the case and his Faithful think they can do whatever they like, since they are irrevocably Saved anyway. After handwringing a bit he revises his thesis so that bad behaviour can lose you salvation (Corinthians) so Works are essential, not because they can get you salvation - that is obtainable only by Faith (1) but because sinning can lose you the salvation even if you still have faith.
(1) even though apparently it is not guaranteed, the idea of you having faith and God NOT giving you salvation is something that I doubt even the most hardened Religioous dogmatist would dare say.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-16-2016 at 08:33 AM..
Yes. It is a bit of a tightrope. In some ways, cherry -picking the Bible (and even Dogma, see ET vs UR) is a cop -out and really the "Ghost Bible" in an almost blasphemous form. "God's word doesn't suit us, we had better rewrite it for him". it obviously has advantages because it means you can hang onto some form of Bible -based belief rather than have to reject it altogether.
That is why I have a grudging respect for the stubborn literalist who will not compromise on what the Bible says, though I can get on better with those who will regard the Bible as containing large chunks that are open to negotiation.
I just think myself lucky that I don't have that problem.
Yes, atheism's definitely easier, I think. You can just be a spectator/commentator, a role which serves us theists in some ways as well. I'm a little envious of youse guys sometimes. But at this stage of the game, having gone through all the different phases, I'm glad to be where I am spiritually.
It's not surprising that you would have a grudging respect for the fundamentalists. They are as sure that ABC is the truth as you are sure that ABC is not the truth. It's straightforward and sure thinking from both sides.
How on earth do liberal Christians believe that the Christian Left is dying or in decline?
You've got it totally backward, ghostee, but then isn't that typical!
It not the Christian left that is in decline, it is the Christian RIGHT---hardcore conservative fundamentalism--that is in SHARP decline because of their totally medieval, if not Stone Age beliefs that homosexuals should be stoned, that dried up old codgers steeped in the Old Testament Leviticus-ism should be the ones dictating to women what rights they have over their own bodies, and that government should be run by Christian fundamentalism--a sort of Christian TALIBAN!
You cannot stop this decline, ghostee no matter how much you lust after doing it. The snowball is already an avalanche ready to crush the tiny shack of Christian conservatism at the bottom of the hill, and I am watching and anticipating with glee when this happens.
Yes, atheism's definitely easier, I think. You can just be a spectator/commentator, a role which serves us theists in some ways as well. I'm a little envious of youse guys sometimes. But at this stage of the game, having gone through all the different phases, I'm glad to be where I am spiritually.
It's not surprising that you would have a grudging respect for the fundamentalists. They are as sure that ABC is the truth as you are sure that ABC is not the truth. It's straightforward and sure thinking from both sides.
You've got it totally backward, ghostee, but then isn't that typical!
It not the Christian left that is in decline, it is the Christian RIGHT---hardcore conservative fundamentalism--that is in SHARP decline because of their totally medieval, if not Stone Age beliefs that homosexuals should be stoned, that dried up old codgers steeped in the Old Testament Leviticus-ism should be the ones dictating to women what rights they have over their own bodies, and that government should be run by Christian fundamentalism--a sort of Christian TALIBAN!
You cannot stop this decline, ghostee no matter how much you lust after doing it. The snowball is already an avalanche ready to crush the tiny shack of Christian conservatism at the bottom of the hill, and I am watching and anticipating with glee when this happens.
And, this too, is a doctrine of men. A large group of Christians do not believe in OSAS. If you would like to read an extremely conservative pastor's opinion try reading Salvation Is More Complicated Than You Think, by Alan Stanley, an Australian pastor who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the most, if not THE most, conservative seminaries in the world. Dr. Stanley goes through all the Scripture on both sides of the debate.
As an example he gives Paul's warning in Galatians 5:19-21 to those Christians who live practicing "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, factions and envy; drunkenness and orgies, and the like, I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
In Ephesians 5:5 he follows up on the theme: "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person--such a man is an idolator--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
The dichotomies of Scripture allow both sides of the issue to make their point. I have no problem with that. What does rile me is when one side or the other insists that only their side is right. To me it's obvious that we need to run the good race, and work out our salvation in fear and trembling--in other words we must persevere. But certainly one can cherry pick "By grace are you saved through faith, not of works lest any man should boast."
We don't understand it because God was correct when He inspired Paul to write "grace saved through faith," and He was correct when He inspired Paul to warn that "no immoral, impure, or greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of God."
By analogy Jesus is both God and human--both at the same time although "human" is a term that hardly fits God!
God speaks to us in the situation we are in. The Galatians were in one situation and the Romans in another. God spoke to that situation where Romans tried to work their way to heaven and He spoke to the Galatians in a different manner because they were satisfied they could accept Jesus and live the same way they did before (which is what we see from many, many American Christians--foremost among them fundamentalist believers. On these very religious threads one GldnRule, who claims to be a pornographer, has stated Christians are some of his best customers!!
So by grace are we saved. "But Jesus stated: Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:12-13)
I guarantee you that liberal Christians know their Bibles much better than conservative ones. Because we will read Scripture in parallel in order to compare, and fundamentalists prefer to dwell on whatever Scripture they are currently adoring without ever seeing if opposing views are stated in that Book.
The point of all this was not to uphold or reject OSAS, but to point out how reasonable men and women can reach opposite views, then become immediately unreasonable when arguing the point with the other side.
Walking with God is somewhat like trying to balance on a razor's edge - I agree. That is just the way it is.
Keeping the faith certainly implies something we DO, like treading water so as not to drown.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes, atheism's definitely easier, I think. You can just be a spectator/commentator, a role which serves us theists in some ways as well. I'm a little envious of youse guys sometimes. But at this stage of the game, having gone through all the different phases, I'm glad to be where I am spiritually.
