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If something is written after the fact, and then claimed to be a prophecy made before the fact, clearly it isn't a prophecy.
Agreed
Quote:
If something is claimed to be a fulfillment of prophecy, and and there was no fulfillment, clearly it is not a prophecy. The question to ask in this case is who made the prophecy and when was it made and when it was fulfilled.
Agreed
Quote:
The claim "as the prophet said...(without saying exactly when and what and without naming the prophet) is meaningless.
Not true. When does not have to specified. the prophecy only needs to be said, before the event happens, and we don't need the name of the prophet.
What about this example? Is it a valid prophecy?
Quote:
Quoting Matthew 1:23 "There he made his home in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken] through the prophets might be fulfilled, “He will be called a Nazorean.”
But the reality is that there is no such prophecy in the Old Testament. In fact, there is no mention of Nazareth at all in the Old Testament.
The prophecy does not have to be in the OT. It only has to be made before the fulfillment. Jesus is called the Nazarene. Jesus is called the Nazarene 12 times after Mt 1:23. Jn 18:5 for example.
I see, so this really has nothing to do with the question of Matthew 2:23 but rather anything you can find that even remotely sounds like contradiction. No thanks, I'll pass.
The scriptures referenced are: 1 Thessalonians. 2 Thessalonians, and 2 Timothy 3.
Fact 1. Paul in I Thessalonians claim that “on the word of the Lord” Jesus’s return would be during the time of those alive and they would be join Jesus in the sky.
Fact 2. The writer, claiming to be Paul, in II Thessalonians claims that the previous writing by Paul (ie. 1 Thessalonians) is untrue and not written by Paul.
Fact 3. The Epistle termed Timothy tells us that all scripture is inspired by God (or alternately “God breathed).
Because 1Thes is incorrect, and 2 Thes is incorrect, fact 3 is also incorrect. All scripture isn’t God breathed unless one begins with the premise that God sometimes inspires error.
If you have an evidence to the contrary, please present it. A personal belief system is not evidence other than that the believer has a personal belief system.
Last edited by Aristotles child; 11-07-2016 at 08:32 AM..
Reason: Clarification and expansion
Ahah, are you trying reverse psychology to get me to stay by insinuating that I have no answers if I pass? As you might see we were still discussing an aspect of your OP even though you quickly moved on to something totally different after your OP was somewhat neutralized. It is not that your suppositions cannot be refuted, (because they are not "facts" to begin with), but rather that it already appears quite clear that with every supposition refuted there will be multiplied more suppositions like locusts from a pit in the post which follows, until finally, the thread is swarming with a dark cloud of thick black smoke of confusion. I could go get a flame thrower but I do not eat locusts; and you are clearly not going to change your thinking no matter how many locusts get torched.
RESPONSE: I moved on to something else because you seemed willing to ignore the plain meaning of words. It was claimed that the Holy family settled in Nazareth so Jesus was called a Nazarene. Nazareth is a place name, not the name of a religious practice.
So above I presented very simple prophetic errors not involving place names.
Of course, other contradictions in scripture can be presented as well.
Last edited by Aristotles child; 11-07-2016 at 08:45 AM..
Reason: correction
" Aristal child " I think he is the same guy on another list that didn't understand history at all and had no idea what a clan or clan speak, and or the imagery of nations that use a clan system as such that use inherited positions and ancient authorities and His promises to them and to their offspring . I mean when it was explain to him he took the low road and coward out refusing to understand history on any such subject. when he looks he does not see.... it is just cowardly and emotionally blind and these types are the ones running our history departments and anthropology and archaeology departs at the private and public institutes of lower morality.
really if you can't understand history and refuse to understand true history and socialogy how can you see how the future can be and will be created by that history and how His prophesy predicts exactly what men have done and will do . But they are busy making their own history and predicting the future from their own nonsense. it is them that do not judge themselves rightly for they are the hypocrites who make up their own religion. the religion of anti everything true because they refuse to acknowledge anything except that which they have created .
that is how they get to believe that the God of Abraham is patriarchal. maybe the Jews believe that now days but that was not true and if it is true now it isn't traditional just as it is not traditional in native american societies but you can't barely tell them that now days because of the late coming ( white folks) peoples who also just wanted it their way or no way .. thus if the liars tell the lies long enough someone will believe them but always they believe their own lies.
this one only sees stars , not history not people trying to preserve their ancestors stories and their most ancient prophesies.
nope they only see stars.
( turns out daqq that native americans and most west African " do have
" white dna " well the same DNA as "whites" .. I was saying " white " mockingly because of people who don't understand history but make up their own version of it and teach that garbage in the education system and then ridicule all who don't believe them! )
rotf >>> Dagg I think he is the same guy on another list that didn't understand history at all and had no idea what a clan or clan speak, and or the imagery is as to inherited positions and ancient authorities and His promises to them and to their offspring . I mean when it was explain to him he took the low road and coward out refusing to understand history on any such subject. when he looks he does not see.... it is just cowardly and emotionally blind and these types are the ones running our history departments and anthropology and archaeology departs at the private and public institutes of lower morality.
really if you can't understand history and refuse to understand true history and socialogy how can you see how the future can be and will be created by that history and how His prophesy predicts exactly what men have done and will do . But they are busy making their own history and predicting the future from their own nonsense. it is them that do not judge themselves rightly for they are the hypocrites who make up their own religion. the religion of anti everything true because they refuse to acknowledge anything except that which they have created .
that is how they get to believe that the God of Abraham is patriarchal. maybe the Jews believe that now days but that was not true and if it is true now it isn't traditional just as it is not traditional in native american societies but you can't barely tell them that now days because of the late coming ( white folks) peoples who also just wanted it their way or no way .. thus if the liars tell the lies long enough someone will believe them but always they believe their own lies.
this one only sees stars , not history not people trying to preserve their ancestors stories and their most ancient prophesies.
nope they only see stars.
You give yourself away by your misspelling of my screen name and your blatant racism. As far as the rest of your accusations please provide quotes and prove that what you accuse is true. Otherwise you are once again, (second time in this forum), simply engaging in slander and false accusations for your own benefit just because it helps your feeble mind to justify itself and yourself.
RESPONSE: I moved on to something else because you seemed willing to ignore the plain meaning of words.
Not true but rather you have been shown in my first response that what you read in your English translations is not likely what the scripture actually means in Matthew 2:23 because it does indeed come down to the meaning of words. The scripture itself defines the meanings of the words used in it by the contexts in which the words are found. However you side with the majority Christian interpretation in Matthew 2:23 because it allows you to proclaim a supposed contradiction in the machinations of your imagination. Luke 2:23 highlights the high probability that your understanding of Matthew 2:23 is erroneous because the Luke passage quotes from Exodus 13:2 and uses the same form of the same word found in the Matthew passage but employs it so that it clearly means "sanctified" or "set apart", (a different kind of "called out"), in that passage. Moreover set apart is exactly the case with a Nazarite who has taken a vow. Thus it is your staunch insistence that κληθησεται must absolutely always be understood in the way that most English translators render it in Matthew 2:23 and Luke 2:23 which is the real problem. It is not a contradiction but rather your faulty eyes, mind, and heart. You fail to make proper judgment also as for why mainstream Christianity would want to render the Matthew passage in the way that they do. That is because mainstream Christianity does not want to admit that Yeshua was a Nazarite; for we are supposed to become like him, in him, in his Testimony and his walk with the Father. The mainstream prefers to believe that Yeshua came eating and drinking whatsoever he would so that they themselves can likewise do. You therefore walk with the herd whether you know it or not because you believe their translations over the truth that has been shown to you from the scripture itself. You're using Christianity as a straw man argument to reject the Elohim of the scripture: if Christianity is wrong then why do you believe their scholars over and above what the scripture reveals as shown already right here in this thread?
Not true but rather you have been shown in my first response that what you read in your English translations is not likely what the scripture actually means in Matthew 2:23 because it does indeed come down to the meaning of words. The scripture itself defines the meanings of the words used in it by the contexts in which the words are found. However you side with the majority Christian interpretation in Matthew 2:23 because it allows you to proclaim a supposed contradiction in the machinations of your imagination. Luke 2:23 highlights the high probability that your understanding of Matthew 2:23 is erroneous because the Luke passage quotes from Exodus 13:2 and uses the same form of the same word found in the Matthew passage but employs it so that it clearly means "sanctified" or "set apart", (a different kind of "called out"), in that passage. Moreover set apart is exactly the case with a Nazarite who has taken a vow. Thus it is your staunch insistence that κληθησεται must absolutely always be understood in the way that most English translators render it in Matthew 2:23 and Luke 2:23 which is the real problem. It is not a contradiction but rather your faulty eyes, mind, and heart. You fail to make proper judgment also as for why mainstream Christianity would want to render the Matthew passage in the way that they do. That is because mainstream Christianity does not want to admit that Yeshua was a Nazarite; for we are supposed to become like him, in him, in his Testimony and his walk with the Father. The mainstream prefers to believe that Yeshua came eating and drinking whatsoever he would so that they themselves can likewise do. You therefore walk with the herd whether you know it or not because you believe their translations over the truth that has been shown to you from the scripture itself. You're using Christianity as a straw man argument to reject the Elohim of the scripture: if Christianity is wrong then why do you believe their scholars over and above what the scripture reveals as shown already right here in this thread?
RESPONSE:
What a inventive imagination you have!
Quote:
You fail to make proper judgment also as for why mainstream Christianity would want to render the Matthew passage in the way that they do.
Perhaps like most of us, those in mainstream Christianity are, as they were taught in school, going by the plain meaning of words reflecting the intent of the writer.
Now we are awaiting your explanation of the relatively simple and easily understood "inspired" contradictions between Paul's 1 Thessalonians, II Thessalonians and Paul's Epistle to Timothy.
Last edited by Aristotles child; 11-07-2016 at 12:18 PM..
Reason: typo
Perhaps like most of us, those in mainstream Christianity are, as they were taught in school, going by the plain meaning of words reflecting the intent of the writer.
Now we are awaiting your explanation of the relatively simple and easily understood "inspired" contradictions between Paul's 1 Thessalonians, II Thessalonians and Paul's Epistle to Timothy.
Again, as already shown on page one, the plain meaning of κληθησεται in Luke 2:23 is set apart so why do you not believe it could also have the same import in Matthew 2:23? Your insistence that it must mean what *you* say is all the evidence one needs to see that your claims are based on nothing more than your rejection of what you do not understand. I was only trying to help but if you prefer to reject something that you do not even understand to begin with then that is your business.
"The First Epistle to the Thessalonians, usually referred to simply as First Thessalonians, written 1 Thessalonians, and abbreviated 1 Thes., is a book from the New Testament of the Christian Bible. The first letter to the Thessalonians was likely the first of Paul's letters, probably written by the end of AD 52,[1] making it the oldest book in the New Testament."
"The Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, often referred to as Second Thessalonians (US) or Two Thessalonians (UK) (and written 2 Thessalonians) is a book from the New Testament of the Christian Bible. It is traditionally attributed to Paul, as it begins, "Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians"[1] and ends, "I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters."[2] Modern scholarship is divided on whether Paul was the author or not; many scholars question its authenticity based on what they see as differences in style and theology between this and the First Epistle to the Thessalonians.[3]Scholars who support its authenticity view it as having been written around 51-52 AD, shortly after the First Epistle.[4][5] Those who see it as a later composition, assign a date of around 80 - 115 AD."
1 Thes 4:
15 “Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.f16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
But:
2 Thes 2 “We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, 2not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,”* or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand.b3Let no one deceive you in any way…..”
2 Thes 3:17 “This greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s. This is the sign in every letter; this is how I write.”
So we have the writer of Thes 2, claiming to be Paul, who is telling us that writer of 1 Thes. is a fraud. Alternately, it is the writer of 2 Thes who is the fraud.
NOTE:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
16 All scripture is inspired by God and is[a] useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.
"Inspired" or "God breathed" but still contradictory and hence at least one story is in error.
Paul wrote both letters (1 and 2 Thessalonians) (yes, I am aware of the views of many scholars concerning 2 Thessalonians to the contrary; 1 Thessalonians is considered authentic by most scholars) and was not implying in his second letter that his first letter was a fraud. The Thessalonians had received a letter allegedly from Paul saying that the day of the Lord had already come upon them, which contradicted what Paul had taught them in the first letter (1 Thessalonians) that the day of the Lord would not come until the church had been raptured.
In 1 Thessalonians Paul spoke of the rapture in chapter four, and then spoke of the day of the Lord in chapter 5 and stated that God had not destined us (the church) for wrath. The wrath of the day of the Lord. But then someone sent them a letter that the day of the Lord had come, and so Paul reassured them in his second letter that the day of the Lord would not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
2 Thessalonians 3:17 I Paul write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every letter; this is the way I write.
Paul used an amanuensis (a secretary) who did the actual writing of perhaps all of his epistles (see Romans 16:22) But he personally wrote the greeting. He wrote the same benediction with his own hand in both 1 and 2 Thessalonians.
1 Thessalonians 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
2 Thessalonians 3:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
The church did not accept forgeries into the canon, but all of Paul's letters were accepted very early as authoritative. All of Paul's epistles are listed in the Muratorian canon which is dated to the second half of the second century.
3. As to the epistles34 of Paul, again, to those who will understand the matter, they indicate of themselves what they are, and from what place or with what object they were directed. He wrote first of all, and at considerable length, to the Corinthians, to check the schism of heresy; and then to the Galatians, to forbid circumcision; and then to the Romans on the rule of the Oid Testament Scriptures, and also to show them that Christ is the first object35 in these;-which it is needful for us to discuss severally,36 as the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name, in this order: the first to the Corinthians, the second to the Ephesians, the third to the Philippians, the fourth to the Colossians, the fifth to the Galatians, the sixth to the Thessalonians, the seventh to the Romans. Moreover, though he writes twice to the Corinthians and Thessalonians for their correction, it is yet shown-i.e., by this sevenfold writing-that there is one Church spread abroad through the whole world. And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all. He wrote, besides these, one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in simple personal affection and love indeed; but yet these are hallowed in the esteem of the Catholic Church, and in the regulation of ecclesiastical discipline. There are also in circulation one to the Laodiceans, and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, and addressed against the heresy of Marcion; and there are also several others which cannot be received into the Catholic Church, for it is not suitable for gall to be mingled with honey. [Bolding mine]
The Catholic Church refers to the universal Church and is not a reference to the Roman Catholic Church.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-07-2016 at 02:44 PM..
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