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There's an interesting passage in Jeremiah which seems to tell us that writings in the Bible are falsified.
Jeremiah 8:8 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
8 How can you say, “We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us,”
when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie?
Opinions?
Jeremiah 8:8 is not stating or implying that the writings of the Bible are falsified. All you have to do is continue reading in order to understand that not only the scribes, but the prophets and priests were denying the warning of the LORD that judgment was coming on the nation. They were all saying and the scribes were apparently writing that the nation would not see the sword, and that there would not be famine (Jer. 14:13), but that the LORD would give them lasting peace. God told Jeremiah that that the prophets were falsely prophesying in His name.
That is the lying pen of the scribes and the false prophesies of the prophets. And these lies and false prophesies are accurately recorded by Jeremiah.
“Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet,* “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of a man with a price on his head, a price set by some of the Israelites,10d and they paid it out for the potter’s field just as the Lord had commanded me.”
New American Bible Revised Edition footnote; Matt 27:9 -10* [27:9–10] Cf. Mt 26:15. “Matthew’s attributing this text to Jeremiah is puzzling, for there is no such text in that book, and the thirty pieces of silver thrown by Judas “into the temple” (Mt 27:5) recall rather Zec 11:12–13.”
There seems to be yet another error here. First of all, there is no such prophecy in Jeremiah which Matthew (was inspired ???) to claim about throwing blood money into the Temple.
There is mention in Zachariah of thirty pieces of silver being thrown into the Temple but this is a wage dispute, not a betrayal.
Regarding the report of the use of “pieces of silver.” Coinage had replaced “pieces of silver” about 400 years earlier. Both the Romans and the Jewish used them; the Seckel and the Denarius.
Matthew make a number of supposedly divinely inspired errors both with prophecy and history.
Jeremiah 8:8 is not stating or implying that the writings of the Bible are falsified. All you have to do is continue reading in order to understand that not only the scribes, but the prophets and priests were denying the warning of the LORD that judgment was coming on the nation. They were all saying and the scribes were apparently writing that the nation would not see the sword, and that there would not be famine (Jer. 14:13), but that the LORD would give them lasting peace. God told Jeremiah that that the prophets were falsely prophesying in His name.
That is the lying pen of the scribes and the false prophesies of the prophets. And these lies and false prophesies are accurately recorded by Jeremiah.
RESPONSE: Yet there is the admission (for whatever reason they were used) that supposedly God breathed scripture contains falsifications.
Perhaps we should investigate and see how many and how far these falsifications extended.
For example, when only after many decades the apostles reported Jesus resurrection and sometimes an ascension, can these regarded as actual history or only legends?
Or more generally, should we regard the Old and New Testaments as events that really happened, or in some cases, just stories that were told?
The word 'rapture' is the popular terminology for what Paul called the 'catching up' of the church in 1Thessalonians 4:17.
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
The English phrase 'will be caught up' translates the Greek word ἁρπαγησόμεθα - harpagesometha.
ἁρπάζω - Harpazo = caught up.
The Latin translates the Greek word Harpazo as rapiemur.
1 Thess. 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper *** Domino erimus [Biblia Sacra Vulgata]
The asterisks are for the word 'c um' which is on the City-Data's prohibited list, but it doesn't mean the same thing in Latin as it does in English.
From the Latin word rapiemur we get the popular English terminology 'rapture.'
From the Greek Harpazo to the Latin rapiemur to the English word rapture or caught up.
The rapture of the church is the catching up of the church spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
The Church-age began on the day of Pentecost either in A.D. 30 or 33, fifty days after Jesus was resurrected. I hold to the view that Jesus was crucified in A.D. 33. The church-age will be terminated with the rapture of the church which is a still future event.
RESPONSE: I'm afraid not. If you read Acts of the Apostles, you will find that all of Jesus' immediate followers remained devout Temple worshiping Jewish sect. This continued until about 85 AD.
The "Church began at Pentecost" is untrue. Matthew reports that Jesus had said that the law would not perish. But about 55 years after his death, it did. The Christians were labeled "minim" or heretics and excluded from the Jewish synagogues. This is recorded in John's gospel written about 95 AD.
A Christian "church" started at Pentecost is unhistorical even using Acts of the Apostles.
RESPONSE: Yet there is the admission (for whatever reason they were used) that supposedly God breathed scripture contains falsifications.
Perhaps we should investigate and see how many and how far these falsifications extended.
For example, when only after many decades the apostles reported Jesus resurrection and sometimes an ascension, can these regarded as actual history or only legends?
Or more generally, should we regard the Old and New Testaments as events that really happened, or in some cases, just stories that were told?
There is no admission in the Bible that it says anything that can't be relied on as having been accurately reported. I already explained that Jeremiah 8:8 doesn't mean that at all.
You can discuss whether the resurrection of Jesus was historical with scholar Gary Habermous.
Hmm. My response to that is that you imply that you have already established the first untruth, which i do not agree has been established, wadr. That said, i believe it is misleading to go to such a Book, one made of conundrums, expecting to extract "facts" or "proof," in the manner of a courtroom showdown type thing. And so, where you read "religion" and "untruth," a religious person might read "water" (Grape juice), i read "epiphany," because after all we all get inspired, imo, and who knows what someone further down the path from me reads.
(of course, i have unconsciously inserted my bias into that list, and i did not mean to imply a hierarchy per se; or rather, i guess i did, for our purposes, but real/world this privilege--wow, ever notice how hard privilege is to spell? --is reserved for the individual; honor whom you will honor, regardless of whom other men honor, iow)
So, it seems to me that everyone gets what their heart is reflecting at the time, the moment; and as an example i would say that while you reflect "untruth" here, no doubt at other places, in other moments, you would be in agreement with Book. Like maybe at "Love your neighbor; this fulfills the law and prophets," or, pick one, doesn't matter.
RESPONSE: Actually, I'm using the claim that all scripture is inspired or "God breathed." If that is not true then much in Christianity may be simply untrue historically. That is, it didn't really happen.
And I use Webster's definition of "condrums"
Full Definition of conundrum
1
: a riddle whose answer is or involves a pun
2
a : a question or problem having only a conjectural answer
b : an intricate and difficult problem.
But I do separate fact and fiction, and am not inclined to play "lets pretend."
i see that this may have already been dealt with by Mike555, but being as how that information...might not serve you, i will say that you are looking for "private audiences," which is not in there, but you have ample proof of "private audiences" in your daydreams, etc. Iow when you think to yourself, "I wonder..." who is doing the wondering? When a reply comes, the same way, where did it come from? Paul would have said "The Spirit," whereas you are free to define it yourself, and may you be blessed, Aristotles child.
RESPONSE: You are, of course, suggesting an interesting possibility.
How much of Christianity is really just based on "daydreams" which, although Paul never claimed" many private audiences with Jesus - I think that is Mike555's claim, he evidently is trying to tell us it's true - in short, how much we find reported by the New Testament written very long after the fact, really occurred? And how much is really just "daydreams"?
RESPONSE: Actually, I'm using the claim that all scripture is inspired or "God breathed." If that is not true then much in Christianity may be simply untrue historically. That is, it didn't really happen.
And I use Webster's definition of "condrums"
Full Definition of conundrum
1
: a riddle whose answer is or involves a pun
2
a : a question or problem having only a conjectural answer
b : an intricate and difficult problem.
But I do separate fact and fiction, and am not inclined to play "lets pretend."
My response to part 1 would be that we do not have the original OT immediately available to us, until one goes to the Lex, and we do not have the original Hebrew NT at all. So, practically speaking, i find nothing to argue with in your assertion, but i would debate the conclusion that you reach from this, almost surely, if that conclusion is "...ergo, the Bible cannot benefit people on a spiritual level," for the simple reason that the forest has likely yet to be perceived, so to speak.
As to part 2, i would suggest the 3rst one, but have discovered some of the other two as well.
The word 'rapture' is the popular terminology for what Paul called the 'catching up' of the church in 1Thessalonians 4:17.
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
The English phrase 'will be caught up' translates the Greek word ἁρπαγησόμεθα - harpagesometha.
ἁρπάζω - Harpazo = caught up.
The Latin translates the Greek word Harpazo as rapiemur.
1 Thess. 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper *** Domino erimus [Biblia Sacra Vulgata]
The asterisks are for the word 'c um' which is on the City-Data's prohibited list, but it doesn't mean the same thing in Latin as it does in English.
From the Latin word rapiemur we get the popular English terminology 'rapture.'
From the Greek Harpazo to the Latin rapiemur to the English word rapture or caught up.
The rapture of the church is the catching up of the church spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
The Church-age began on the day of Pentecost either in A.D. 30 or 33, fifty days after Jesus was resurrected. I hold to the view that Jesus was crucified in A.D. 33. The church-age will be terminated with the rapture of the church which is a still future event.
RESPONSE: I'm afraid not. If you read Acts of the Apostles, you will find that all of Jesus' immediate followers remained devout Temple worshiping Jewish sect. This continued until about 85 AD.
The "Church began at Pentecost" is untrue. Matthew reports that Jesus had said that the law would not perish. But about 55 years after his death, it did. The Christians were labeled "minim" or heretics and excluded from the Jewish synagogues. This is recorded in John's gospel written about 95 AD.
A Christian "church" started at Pentecost is unhistorical even using Acts of the Apostles.
How ignorant. The Church began on the day of Pentecost as Acts chapter two shows, and as any historian will acknowledge. The first Christians were Jews and they continued to observe many of the customs of Judaism. They were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26).
As Dr. Everett Ferguson, who received his doctoral degree "with distinction" in History and Philosophy of Religion at Harvard, states,
The appearances of the resurrected Jesus brought the disciples together again and confirmed their faith in him. The experience of the coming of the Holy Spirit, recorded in Acts 2, launched the church as a distinct entity on a mission of proclaiming Jesus as ''both Lord and Messiah'' (Acts 2:36).
There was initially no radical break with Jewish institutions. The early Jerusalem church frequented the temple and observed Jewish customs. The early Jerusalem church frequented the temple and observed Jewish customs.
Church History, p. 34
The Church-age began on the day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus, and the Jerusalem church was the first local church.
“Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet,* “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of a man with a price on his head, a price set by some of the Israelites,10d and they paid it out for the potter’s field just as the Lord had commanded me.”
New American Bible Revised Edition footnote; Matt 27:9 -10* [27:9–10] Cf. Mt 26:15. “Matthew’s attributing this text to Jeremiah is puzzling, for there is no such text in that book, and the thirty pieces of silver thrown by Judas “into the temple” (Mt 27:5) recall rather Zec 11:12–13.”
There seems to be yet another error here. First of all, there is no such prophecy in Jeremiah which Matthew (was inspired ???) to claim about throwing blood money into the Temple.
There is mention in Zachariah of thirty pieces of silver being thrown into the Temple but this is a wage dispute, not a betrayal.
Regarding the report of the use of “pieces of silver.” Coinage had replaced “pieces of silver” about 400 years earlier. Both the Romans and the Jewish used them; the Seckel and the Denarius.
Matthew make a number of supposedly divinely inspired errors both with prophecy and history.
You gotta suspect something intentional going on here, wadr. You see an error, whereas i see a riddle. The ref in Zech "throw it to the potter" had to have been known by Matthew, almost surely. Unfortunately i am way too ignorant to dispute this, but i have a call into my RP(Right Pastor), and we will see what we will see there.
If you will, i note that you say "another error," when you ref the same error? This says something, Aristotles child. Just sayin.
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Matthews scriptural errors
--is reserved for the individual; honor whom you will honor, regardless of whom other men honor, iow)
