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Act 8:26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise, and go toward the south to the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza. This is a desert.”
Act 8:27 He arose and went; and behold, there was a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was over all her treasure, who had come to Jerusalem to worship.
Act 8:28 He was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Act 8:29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go near, and join yourself to this chariot.”
Act 8:30 Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
Act 8:31 He said, “How can I, unless someone explains it to me?” He begged Philip to come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture which he was reading was this, “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter. As a lamb before his shearer is silent, so he doesn’t open his mouth.
Act 8:33 In his humiliation, his judgment was taken away. Who will declare His generation? For his life is taken from the earth.”
Act 8:34 The eunuch answered Philip, “Who is the prophet talking about? About himself, or about someone else?”
Act 8:35 Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached to him about Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Mike555 said:
You provided the passage and it says nothing like what Mike claimed...
Philip absolutely does say that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. The Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip who the prophet Isaiah (with reference to Isaiah 53) was talking about. In reply, Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch from Isaiah 53.
26 Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go toward the south[g] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a wilderness road.) 27 So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to this chariot and join it.” 30 So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:
“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”
34 The eunuch asked Philip, “About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus.
QUESTION: Where does this passage say that Jesus is the Suffering Servant? It only claims “the good news about Jesus.”
And from the point of view of historicity, here we have a writing by a non-witness to what he argues in attempting to convince someone, but which does not itself claim that Jesus was the Suffering Servant whom Isaiah describes as Israel.
Mike 555 posted in #243:
Quote:
And once again, you ask what the source of Philip's statement is concerning how Isaiah 53 is about Jesus when I've already told you that the very first post on this forum gives the source. Read the post as I told you to do and stop wasting my time with your nonsense and dishonesty
RESPONSE: On the contrary, I and other posters are providing “sense” honestly. Not wishful thinking nor ignoring the facts of history.
Who does Isaiah constantly repeat that the Suffering Servant is?
(WHO IS GOD'S SERVANT? In Jewish thought the prophet Isaiah (52:13-53:12) provides the strongest evidence for the claim that the suffering yet redemptive servant is Israel, the Jewish People. Several verses in prior chapters of Isaiah specifically state that Israel/Jacob is God's servant. You Israel are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen (41:8). Hear Me now, Jacob My servant; hear Me, Israel My chosen (44:1). Have no fear, Jacob My servant: Jeshurun whom I have chosen (44:2). Remember all this, Jacob, remember Israel, for you are My servant.”
(Allen S. Maller is a graduate of UCLA and the Hebrew Union College. He has taught at the University of Judaism and Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. He is Rabbi Emeritus of Temple Akiba in Culver City California. His website is http://www.rabbimaller.com)
Last edited by Aristotles child; 07-22-2017 at 10:56 AM..
Reason: additional publication
26 Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go toward the south[g] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a wilderness road.) 27 So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to this chariot and join it.” 30 So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:
“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”
34 The eunuch asked Philip, “About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus.
QUESTION: Where does this passage say that Jesus is the Suffering Servant? It only claims “the good news about Jesus.”
And from the point of view of historicity, here we have a writing by a non-witness to what he argues in attempting to convince someone, but which does not itself claim that Jesus was the Suffering Servant whom Isaiah describes as Israel.
Mike 555 posted in #243:
RESPONSE: On the contrary, I and other posters are providing “sense” honestly. Not wishful thinking nor ignoring the facts of history.
Who does Isaiah constantly repeat that the Suffering Servant is?
(WHO IS GOD'S SERVANT? In Jewish thought the prophet Isaiah (52:13-53:12) provides the strongest evidence for the claim that the suffering yet redemptive servant is Israel, the Jewish People. Several verses in prior chapters of Isaiah specifically state that Israel/Jacob is God's servant. You Israel are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen (41:8). Hear Me now, Jacob My servant; hear Me, Israel My chosen (44:1). Have no fear, Jacob My servant: Jeshurun whom I have chosen (44:2). Remember all this, Jacob, remember Israel, for you are My servant.”
(Allen S. Maller is a graduate of UCLA and the Hebrew Union College. He has taught at the University of Judaism and Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. He is Rabbi Emeritus of Temple Akiba in Culver City California. His website is Rabbi Maller)
As I just stated in post #251, ''Philip absolutely does say that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. The Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip who the prophet Isaiah (with reference to Isaiah 53) was talking about. In reply, Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch from Isaiah 53.'' The eunuch asked who, and Philip replied, 'Jesus.'
You keep ignoring the contrasts I presented in post #182 between the characteristics of Israel as the servant of the Lord, and the characteristics of the servant of the Lord which is referred to in Isaiah 53 which makes it impossible for Israel to be the servant who is being referred to in Isaiah 53.
You also ignore the fact that the Babylonian Talmud - Sanhedrin 98b interprets Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah. Not to Israel. You ignore the Jews who give Isaiah 53 a Messianic interpretation and pay attention only to those Jews who claim it refers to Israel. And you ignore the fact that Philip, a Jew, stated that it refers to Jesus. And that Jesus Himself said it referred to Him.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-22-2017 at 11:46 AM..
Acts 8:26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise, and go toward the south to the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza. This is a desert.”
Acts 8:27 He arose and went; and behold, there was a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was over all her treasure, who had come to Jerusalem to worship.
Acts 8:28 He was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Acts 8:29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go near, and join yourself to this chariot.”
Acts 8:30 Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
Acts 8:31 He said, “How can I, unless someone explains it to me?” He begged Philip to come up and sit with him.
Acts 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture which he was reading was this, “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter. As a lamb before his shearer is silent, so he doesn’t open his mouth.
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation, his judgment was taken away. Who will declare His generation? For his life is taken from the earth.”
Acts 8:34 The eunuch answered Philip, “Who is the prophet talking about? About himself, or about someone else?”
Acts 8:35 Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached to him about Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~HORUS THE HAWK IS A REAL ANGEL THAT FLIES ABOVE THE SKIES~~~~~~~~~~~
THE WORLD IS GOING TO A GLORIOUS HELL BECAUSE LAWLESS GOVERNMENTS RULE YOUR FOODS~
WHO'S THE NEXT LAWLESS HUNTER WHO TRESPASSES AGAIN AGAINST THE GATES OF ANUBIS?
THE EARTH IS THE LORD PTAH'S FOOTSTOOL NOT YOURS USELESS HUNTERS TURKEY EARTHQUAKES.
Align with Isaiah 53 X marked the Pharaoh Kings for they were the Hyksos worst enemies for taxes.
Jesus was the eXact worst enemy the Hyksos sheep slave-traders could have inside of Babylonians.
The Babylonian Talmud is a book filled with hate and all of the world system runs upon such hatings.
The agents of state capitalism should be made aware that Hicksville is the very worst mossad sinks.
Things Prime Minister Netanyahu should know about is that they leave Israel to get ahead of planks.
You keep ignoring the contrasts I presented in post #182 between the characteristics of Israel as the servant of the Lord, and the characteristics of the servant of the Lord which is referred to in Isaiah 53 which makes it impossible for Israel to be the servant who is being referred to in Isaiah 53.
You also ignore the fact that the Babylonian Talmud - Sanhedrin 98b interprets Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah. Not to Israel. You ignore the Jews who give Isaiah 53 a Messianic interpretation and pay attention only to those Jews who claim it refers to Israel. And you ignore the fact that Philip, a Jew, stated that it refers to Jesus. And that Jesus Himself said it referred to Him.
RESPONSE: One more time, as Outlook Judaism clearly states:
"The well-worn claim frequently advanced by Christian apologists who argue that the noted Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040 CE – 1105 CE), was the first to identify the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel is inaccurate and misleading. In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”3
Perhaps that’s because you continue to ignore what Isaiah plainly states about Israel being the suffering servant and try to make it a prophecy of Jesus which it is not.
Moreover, perhaps you have failed to note that Luke, not Philip, is the source of your Suffering Servant claim that Jesus is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
Perhaps you have failed to observe that Acts was not written by the Apostle Phillip, and Luke is recounting yet another story for which there is no witness testimony.
Keep in mind that Luke was also responsible for those three conflicting stories of Paul’s Damascus road conversion experience of which Paul say nothing. Luke tries to make converts and has some interesting yarns to tell.
And the gospel of Luke clashes with the gospel of Matthew as well.
"The error, so far, might seem rather marginal. The third Gospel has confused a local census in Judaea with a worldwide decree from Augustus; it has tried to date the story by an obscure Quirinius, whereas elsewhere, like Matthew's, its story takes place under Herod the Great. In fact, the trouble goes very much deeper. There is a contradiction in Luke's story: if Quirinius was governor, the Roman census is credible but Herod is a mistake. There is also a contradiction with Matthew's story: if Quirinius or the Roman census is correct, Herod was not king and Matthew's stories of the Wise Men, the Massacre of the Innocents and the Flight into Egypt are all chronologically impossible. If Herod was king, there could have been no census according to Caeser Augustus. Even if there had been such a census, the third Gospel's view of it runs into further problems."
(Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction In The Bible (Penguin Books Ltd, 1991), pp. 30-31)
Luke was not a witness to any exchange between Philip and any unnamed Ethiopian. But Luke does want to push the messiahship of Jesus. Voila! Another gospel story!
The author is not named in either volume.[8] According to Church tradition dating from the 2nd century, he was the "Luke" named as a companion of the apostle Paul in three of the letters attributed to Paul himself; this view is still sometimes advanced, but "a critical consensus emphasizes the countless contradictions between the account in Acts and the authentic Pauline letters."[9]) (An example can be seen by comparing Acts's accounts of Paul's conversion (Acts 9:1–31, 22:6–21, and 26:9–23) with Paul's own statement that he remained unknown to Christians in Judea after that event (Galatians 1:17–24).).
But feel free to repeat a defeated argument.
Last edited by Aristotles child; 07-22-2017 at 06:30 PM..
Reason: typo
07-22-2017, 07:17 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotles child
Mike continues to claim:
RESPONSE: One more time, as Outlook Judaism clearly states:
"The well-worn claim frequently advanced by Christian apologists who argue that the noted Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040 CE – 1105 CE), was the first to identify the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel is inaccurate and misleading. In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”3
Perhaps that’s because you continue to ignore what Isaiah plainly states about Israel being the suffering servant and try to make it a prophecy of Jesus which it is not.
Moreover, perhaps you have failed to note that Luke, not Philip, is the source of your Suffering Servant claim that Jesus is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
Perhaps you have failed to observe that Acts was not written by the Apostle Phillip, and Luke is recounting yet another story for which there is no witness testimony.
Keep in mind that Luke was also responsible for those three conflicting stories of Paul’s Damascus road conversion experience of which Paul say nothing. Luke tries to make converts and has some interesting yarns to tell.
And the gospel of Luke clashes with the gospel of Matthew as well.
"The error, so far, might seem rather marginal. The third Gospel has confused a local census in Judaea with a worldwide decree from Augustus; it has tried to date the story by an obscure Quirinius, whereas elsewhere, like Matthew's, its story takes place under Herod the Great. In fact, the trouble goes very much deeper. There is a contradiction in Luke's story: if Quirinius was governor, the Roman census is credible but Herod is a mistake. There is also a contradiction with Matthew's story: if Quirinius or the Roman census is correct, Herod was not king and Matthew's stories of the Wise Men, the Massacre of the Innocents and the Flight into Egypt are all chronologically impossible. If Herod was king, there could have been no census according to Caeser Augustus. Even if there had been such a census, the third Gospel's view of it runs into further problems."
(Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction In The Bible (Penguin Books Ltd, 1991), pp. 30-31)
Luke was not a witness to any exchange between Philip and any unnamed Ethiopian. But Luke does want to push the messiahship of Jesus. Voila! Another gospel story!
The author is not named in either volume.[8] According to Church tradition dating from the 2nd century, he was the "Luke" named as a companion of the apostle Paul in three of the letters attributed to Paul himself; this view is still sometimes advanced, but "a critical consensus emphasizes the countless contradictions between the account in Acts and the authentic Pauline letters."[9]) (An example can be seen by comparing Acts's accounts of Paul's conversion (Acts 9:1–31, 22:6–21, and 26:9–23) with Paul's own statement that he remained unknown to Christians in Judea after that event (Galatians 1:17–24).).
But feel free to repeat a defeated argument.
He also continues to ignore the layered teaching like midrash. Even Rashi knew that it was Israel but also had it as the Messiah but the Messiah interpretation is not the primary interpretation. Matthew did the same thing with certain texts in his gospel. Anyway, it is what you get with zealous religonists who pour over ambiguous texts that fail to perform their expectations.
RESPONSE: One more time, as Outlook Judaism clearly states:
"The well-worn claim frequently advanced by Christian apologists who argue that the noted Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040 CE – 1105 CE), was the first to identify the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel is inaccurate and misleading. In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”3
Perhaps that’s because you continue to ignore what Isaiah plainly states about Israel being the suffering servant and try to make it a prophecy of Jesus which it is not.
Moreover, perhaps you have failed to note that Luke, not Philip, is the source of your Suffering Servant claim that Jesus is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
Perhaps you have failed to observe that Acts was not written by the Apostle Phillip, and Luke is recounting yet another story for which there is no witness testimony.
Keep in mind that Luke was also responsible for those three conflicting stories of Paul’s Damascus road conversion experience of which Paul say nothing. Luke tries to make converts and has some interesting yarns to tell.
And the gospel of Luke clashes with the gospel of Matthew as well.
"The error, so far, might seem rather marginal. The third Gospel has confused a local census in Judaea with a worldwide decree from Augustus; it has tried to date the story by an obscure Quirinius, whereas elsewhere, like Matthew's, its story takes place under Herod the Great. In fact, the trouble goes very much deeper. There is a contradiction in Luke's story: if Quirinius was governor, the Roman census is credible but Herod is a mistake. There is also a contradiction with Matthew's story: if Quirinius or the Roman census is correct, Herod was not king and Matthew's stories of the Wise Men, the Massacre of the Innocents and the Flight into Egypt are all chronologically impossible. If Herod was king, there could have been no census according to Caeser Augustus. Even if there had been such a census, the third Gospel's view of it runs into further problems."
(Robin Lane Fox, The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction In The Bible (Penguin Books Ltd, 1991), pp. 30-31)
Luke was not a witness to any exchange between Philip and any unnamed Ethiopian. But Luke does want to push the messiahship of Jesus. Voila! Another gospel story!
The author is not named in either volume.[8] According to Church tradition dating from the 2nd century, he was the "Luke" named as a companion of the apostle Paul in three of the letters attributed to Paul himself; this view is still sometimes advanced, but "a critical consensus emphasizes the countless contradictions between the account in Acts and the authentic Pauline letters."[9]) (An example can be seen by comparing Acts's accounts of Paul's conversion (Acts 9:1–31, 22:6–21, and 26:9–23) with Paul's own statement that he remained unknown to Christians in Judea after that event (Galatians 1:17–24).).
But feel free to repeat a defeated argument.
You're the who's repeating already refuted claims. Once again, for all to see, post #182 shows that it is impossible for Israel to be the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53.
And once again, you continue to ignore the fact that while there were, and are Jews who claim that Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, there were and are Jews who hold to the Messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53. In the end, what matters is what the text says. And the text, as shown in post #182 clearly eliminates Israel as the servant in that passage. But since you refuse to actually read post #182, and do so objectively, you will never know and you will continue to bark 'nuh uh' just for the sake of doing so.
The only people on this thread who are denying that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus are you and Richard, and neither of you are Christian. Oh, and Shiloh who's also not a Christian. For Christians, the simple fact that both Philip and Jesus Himself said that Isaiah 53 refers to Him should be enough. But I spelled out clearly in post #182 why Israel can't be the servant to whom Isaiah 53 refers.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-22-2017 at 07:26 PM..
He also continues to ignore the layered teaching like midrash. Even Rashi knew that it was Israel but also had it as the Messiah but the Messiah interpretation is not the primary interpretation. Matthew did the same thing with certain texts in his gospel. Anyway, it is what you get with zealous religonists who pour over ambiguous texts that fail to perform their expectations.
And you ignore the fact that the Babylonian Talmud - Sanhedrin 98b sees Isaiah 53 as Messianic though they can't decide on who the Messiah is.
B]The Babylonian Talmud[/b] consists of Jewish documents which were compiled during the time between the 3rd and 5th centuries. Sanhedrin 98b understands Isaiah 53 to refer to the Messiah, though the rabbis' disagree on who the Messiah is.
Rab said: The world was created only on David's account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul, The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Many Jews understood that Israel is not the servant in Isaiah 53.
07-22-2017, 07:26 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And you ignore the fact that the Babylonian Talmud - Sanhedrin 98b sees Isaiah 53 as Messianic though they can't decide on who the Messiah is.
B]The Babylonian Talmud[/b] consists of Jewish documents which were compiled during the time between the 3rd and 5th centuries. Sanhedrin 98b understands Isaiah 53 to refer to the Messiah, though the rabbis' disagree on who the Messiah is.
Rab said: The world was created only on David's account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul, The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Many Jews understood that Israel is not the servant in Isaiah 53.
I don't ignore it it is just really irrelevant, as noted by earlier interpreters. I am sure I can find all kinds of Jews who disagree on a number of issues -who cares? Is 53 is simple - it is ISRAEL - PERIOD as noted and explained.
By the way, I am very familiar with it as seen in the reference to shiloh (Gen49:10) - it is why that is my user name on here. Cause I was just like you Mike. Step into the light an be free for real
Last edited by 2K5Gx2km; 07-22-2017 at 07:37 PM..
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Luke, not Phillip, wrote Acts 8.
