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Mike555 tried to convince us that Jesus was Isaiah’s Suffering Servant.
RESPONSE: But that doesn’t fit the story as written by Isaiah (and at least one other writer).
When the Gospels were written in 70 -95 AD, the writers, especially Matthew and Luke, began with a virgin birth story of the birth of Emmanuel (although this was based on a mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14). They and others tried to prove that Jesus had fulfilled all the Old Testament prophecies of for the Messiah. And fundamentalists are still trying to do that despite the clear evidence to the contrary. Obviously, he didn’t. Isaiah's Suffering Servant
Isaiah lived about 700 years before Christ but scholars are sure that chapters forty and after were written by an unnamed author after the Babylonian exile 586 BCE. Even at the later date, who thinks 400 years into the future? The author was addressing the times in which he lived. He didn't have to name Uzziah because it was understood by his contemporaries. That explains why most of the passage was written in past tense. Some historical background is necessary.
The Suffering Servant is Israel. The passage equates Israel with a former contemporary of Isaiah, King Uzziah, who was disfigured, suffered and died of leprosy. From there he believed Israel would one day redeem itself and become a leader among nations. It was a failed prophecy.
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you, you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. (Isa. 44:21)
And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." (Isa. 49:3)
Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.(Isa. 52:13)
His appearance was marred beyond human semblance. -Past tense. This disfigurement fits the appearance of a leper.
As many were astonished at him- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men (Isa. 52:14)
Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand; (Isa. 53:10)
Summary: Jesus did not have a “marred” appearance, did not have prolonged days, nor have any offpring.
No, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel for the reasons already shown in post #182. And no matter how much you try to ignore those reasons, they are valid.
While you claim that Jesus being the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 doesn't fit the story in Isaiah 53, many Jews disagree with you. And the apostle Philip understood that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus.
His days being prolonged refers to His resurrection. His death did not end His existence. He rose from the dead never to die again.
The reference to 'His offspring' in Isaiah 53:10 refers to all who are born into the family of God through faith in Him (Christ Jesus). Jesus at times referred to His disciples as children.
Mark 10:24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
John 21:4 But when the day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5] So Jesus said to them, "Children, you do not have any fish, do you?" They answered Him, "No."
As for His appearance being marred, I believe that refers to the fact that at his trial after his arrest he was scourged, and his body and face beaten so badly that he barely looked human.
Once again, to the unbiased mind Isaiah 53 is Messianic and refers to Jesus just He said it did, and as Philip said it did.
originally posted by aristotles childmike555 tried to convince us that jesus was isaiah’s suffering servant.
response: But that doesn’t fit the story as written by isaiah (and at least one other writer).
when the gospels were written in 70 -95 ad, the writers, especially matthew and luke, began with a virgin birth story of the birth of emmanuel (although this was based on a mistranslation of isaiah 7:14). They and others tried to prove that jesus had fulfilled all the old testament prophecies of for the messiah. And fundamentalists are still trying to do that despite the clear evidence to the contrary. Obviously, he didn’t.
isaiah lived about 700 years before christ but scholars are sure that chapters forty and after were written by an unnamed author after the babylonian exile 586 bce. Even at the later date, who thinks 400 years into the future? The author was addressing the times in which he lived. He didn't have to name uzziah because it was understood by his contemporaries. That explains why most of the passage was written in past tense. Some historical background is necessary.
The suffering servant is israel. The passage equates israel with a former contemporary of isaiah, king uzziah, who was disfigured, suffered and died of leprosy. From there he believed israel would one day redeem itself and become a leader among nations. It was a failed prophecy.
Remember these things, o jacob, and israel, for you are my servant; i formed you, you are my servant; o israel, you will not be forgotten by me. (isa. 44:21)
and he said to me, "you are my servant, israel, in whom i will be glorified." (isa. 49:3)
behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.(isa. 52:13)
his appearance was marred beyond human semblance. -past tense. This disfigurement fits the appearance of a leper.
As many were astonished at him- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men (isa. 52:14)
yet it was the will of the lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the lord shall prosper in his hand; (isa. 53:10)
summary: Jesus did not have a “marred” appearance, did not have prolonged days, nor have any offpring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555
no, the suffering servant in isaiah 53 is not israel for the reasons already shown in post #182. And no matter how much you try to ignore those reasons, they are valid.
While you claim that jesus being the suffering servant of isaiah 53 doesn't fit the story in isaiah 53, many jews disagree with you. And the apostle philip understood that isaiah 53 referred to jesus.
His days being prolonged refers to his resurrection. His death did not end his existence. He rose from the dead never to die again.
The reference to 'his offspring' in isaiah 53:10 refers to all who are born into the family of god through faith in him (christ jesus). Jesus at times referred to his disciples as children.
mark 10:24 the disciples were amazed at his words. But jesus answered again and said to them, "children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of god!
john 21:4 but when the day was now breaking, jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was jesus. 5] so jesus said to them, "children, you do not have any fish, do you?" they answered him, "no."
as for his appearance being marred, i believe that refers to the fact that at his trial after his arrest he was scourged, and his body and face beaten so badly that he barely looked human.
Once again, to the unbiased mind isaiah 53 is messianic and refers to jesus just he said it did, and as philip said it did.
That might be exactly why it would be so much easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye than for one who must bring falsehoods back in again as pertaining to the Messiah.
Other than that, Mike555, you will never convince one who must push the concept the nation-state of Israel is the servant because one must push a guilt-trip made in its own mind.
God's the one who created man in all of his likeness not the nation-state of Israel with enough issues of its own to take care of whether it wins a battle or not restitution's been paid.
Man fell away from that spiritual likeness God made him be as a living breathing human being for was given the choice of so many trees to choose from but took of one forbidden died.
If the Lord Christ ever had children because he might have had a wife would that shock anyone all that much that it would be natural of him would it not be that he might have as had.
His flesh was without sin but he did hunger as thirst but whether it is the truth or not that he had no natural children of his own he was the only one who could forgive sins at resolved.
No, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel for the reasons already shown in post #182. And no matter how much you try to ignore those reasons, they are valid.
While you claim that Jesus being the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 doesn't fit the story in Isaiah 53, many Jews disagree with you. And the apostle Philip understood that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus.
His days being prolonged refers to His resurrection. His death did not end His existence. He rose from the dead never to die again.
The reference to 'His offspring' in Isaiah 53:10 refers to all who are born into the family of God through faith in Him (Christ Jesus). Jesus at times referred to His disciples as children.
Mark 10:24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
John 21:4 But when the day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5] So Jesus said to them, "Children, you do not have any fish, do you?" They answered Him, "No."
As for His appearance being marred, I believe that refers to the fact that at his trial after his arrest he was scourged, and his body and face beaten so badly that he barely looked human.
Once again, to the unbiased mind Isaiah 53 is Messianic and refers to Jesus just He said it did, and as Philip said it did.
That might be exactly why it would be so much easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye than for one who must bring falsehoods back in again as pertaining to the Messiah.
Other than that, Mike555, you will never convince one who must push the concept the nation-state of Israel is the servant because one must push a guilt-trip made in its own mind.
God's the one who created man in all of his likeness not the nation-state of Israel with enough issues of its own to take care of whether it wins a battle or not restitution's been paid.
Man fell away from that spiritual likeness God made him be as a living breathing human being for was given the choice of so many trees to choose from but took of one forbidden died.
If the Lord Christ ever had children because he might have had a wife would that shock anyone all that much that it would be natural of him would it not be that he might have as had.
His flesh was without sin but he did hunger as thirst but whether it is the truth or not that he had no natural children of his own he was the only one who could forgive sins at resolved.
No, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel for the reasons already shown in post #182. And no matter how much you try to ignore those reasons, they are valid.
While you claim that Jesus being the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 doesn't fit the story in Isaiah 53, many Jews disagree with you. And the apostle Philip understood that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus.
RESPONSE:
An assertion with no facts provided.
Quote:
His days being prolonged refers to His resurrection. His death did not end His existence. He rose from the dead never to die again.
RESPONSE: No. It says he had a long life and many children. Jesus didn't
Quote:
The reference to 'His offspring' in Isaiah 53:10 refers to all who are born into the family of God through faith in Him (Christ Jesus). Jesus at times referred to His disciples as children.
RESPONSE:
No. The many children equate with his long life, which Jesus never had. And the NT does not say that he had children.
Quote:
Mark 10:24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
John 21:4 But when the day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5] So Jesus said to them, "Children, you do not have any fish, do you?" They answered Him, "No."
RESPONSE: Are you claiming that the Apostles were Jesus' children?
Quote:
As for His appearance being marred, I believe that refers to the fact that at his trial after his arrest he was scourged, and his body and face beaten so badly that he barely looked human.
RESPONSE:
"I believe...? What you want to believe is up to you. But has nothing to do with the facts. "I believe" that most readers are reality oriented.
Quote:
Once again, to the unbiased mind Isaiah 53 is Messianic and refers to Jesus just He said it did, and as Philip said it did.
RESPONSE: I'm afraid not. The evidence and statements of Isaiah say otherwise.
“Despite strong objections from conservative Christian apologists, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors.”
“The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.”
“Isaiah 41:8-9 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Last edited by Aristotles child; 07-20-2017 at 07:15 AM..
“Despite strong objections from conservative Christian apologists, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors.”
“The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.”
“Isaiah 41:8-9 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
The facts are very much in view in # post 182. There are things about the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 which cannot be said about Israel.
I've already explained what Isaiah 53 means about the servant's days being extended and about his offspring.
It's already been shown that many Jews have recognized that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah, not Israel. I already posted that the Babylonian Talmud - Sanhedrin 98b which was compiled between the 3rd and 5th centuries understands Isaiah 53 to be about the Messiah, not Israel.
All you are doing is making denials without substance and arguing to be arguing. The facts, which have been given, most clearly in post #182 are that it is impossible for Israel to be the servant in Isaiah 53.
Originally Posted by Orion Rules
That might be exactly why it would be so much easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye than for one who must bring falsehoods back in again as pertaining to the Messiah.
Other than that, Mike555, you will never convince one who must push the concept the nation-state of Israel is the servant because one must push a guilt-trip made in its own mind.
God's the one who created man in all of his likeness not the nation-state of Israel with enough issues of its own to take care of whether it wins a battle or not restitution's been paid.
Man fell away from that spiritual likeness God made him be as a living breathing human being for was given the choice of so many trees to choose from but took of one forbidden died.
If the Lord Christ ever had children because he might have had a wife would that shock anyone all that much that it would be natural of him would it not be that he might have as had.
His flesh was without sin but he did hunger as thirst but whether it is the truth or not that he had no natural children of his own he was the only one who could forgive sins at resolved.
I Timothy 3:16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Mixing and matching verses?...
No but there are those curses.
Did you know that for it's sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 No, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel for the reasons already shown in post #182. And no matter how much you try to ignore those reasons, they are valid.
While you claim that Jesus being the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 doesn't fit the story in Isaiah 53, many Jews disagree with you. And the apostle Philip understood that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus.
His days being prolonged refers to His resurrection. His death did not end His existence. He rose from the dead never to die again.
The reference to 'His offspring' in Isaiah 53:10 refers to all who are born into the family of God through faith in Him (Christ Jesus). Jesus at times referred to His disciples as children.
Mark 10:24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
John 21:4 But when the day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5] So Jesus said to them, "Children, you do not have any fish, do you?" They answered Him, "No."
As for His appearance being marred, I believe that refers to the fact that at his trial after his arrest he was scourged, and his body and face beaten so badly that he barely looked human.
Once again, to the unbiased mind Isaiah 53 is Messianic and refers to Jesus just He said it did, and as Philip said it did.
Richard1965:
Quote:
Wrong again...
Wrong again. Wrong again Mike555 can never get it right for again.
Did you get to make that a shout out or is that the wrong use of a bullhorn.
Did you know cointelpro is a real counter-intelligence project of self-projection.
So one plants one waters the other gives the increase as then they agree to three in one.
The Father the Son the Holy the Ghost did you know that the ancient Egyptians saw God once.
There is no caste system in the Kingdom of God and did you know that the Lamb of God is God was.
God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto Gentiles and Jews.
So what's the issue of constant seances to another secular diary of the pages of history shall prove just you.
Whatever country they're from or from what hilly-billy style may perceive to be cute but it is just at obnoxious.
Is the Mossad real because if they have a counter-intelligence operation upon those who play both sides of issues.
That would make an interesting book almost a novel a glimpse of fiction made almost too real to come to passes pass.
There's no myth to who stands in the night sky at everyone can see him with their own looking glasses at they have eyes.
There's something still called Egypt since it is still there never went away although those alien tried to destroy it many times.
1 Timothy 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
No, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is not Israel for the reasons already shown in post #182. And no matter how much you try to ignore those reasons, they are valid.
While you claim that Jesus being the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 doesn't fit the story in Isaiah 53, many Jews disagree with you. And the apostle Philip understood that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus.
His days being prolonged refers to His resurrection. His death did not end His existence. He rose from the dead never to die again.
The reference to 'His offspring' in Isaiah 53:10 refers to all who are born into the family of God through faith in Him (Christ Jesus). Jesus at times referred to His disciples as children.
Mark 10:24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
John 21:4 But when the day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5] So Jesus said to them, "Children, you do not have any fish, do you?" They answered Him, "No."
As for His appearance being marred, I believe that refers to the fact that at his trial after his arrest he was scourged, and his body and face beaten so badly that he barely looked human.
Once again, to the unbiased mind Isaiah 53 is Messianic and refers to Jesus just He said it did, and as Philip said it did.
Spot on. Although, I have to say Israel, the people, IN A SENSE, have also been servants, as they were dispersed and "seeded" among the nations for His purposes. Peace
Spot on. Although, I have to say Israel, the people, IN A SENSE, have also been servants, as they were dispersed and "seeded" among the nations for His purposes. Peace
Well, that's true. And as I've said, there are instances in which Isaiah does refer to Israel as the servant. But not in Isaiah 53. As well, Isaiah refers to certain individuals as a servant.
From post #182
In Isa. 20:3 the servant is Isaiah himself. In Isa. 22:20 the servant is Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah. In Isa. 37:35 the servant is David. In passages such as Isa. 41:8-9, 42:18-20, 43:10, 44:1, 44:21, 45:4, and 48:20, the servant is Israel.
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Although, I have to say Israel, the people, IN A SENSE, have also been servants, as they were dispersed and "seeded" among the nations for His purposes. Peace