At what age of your child did you know they were a Christian? (Lutheran, hell)
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Curious if Mike 555 and Twin are on the same page on this one. In eight years on this forum I always thought they were.
If I'm understanding Twin correctly, if an individual is baptized at the discretion of their parents as a baby in their church, the baptized individuals' place in Heaven is permanently reserved regardless of the choices they make later in their own lives.
This would go contrary of anything I was taught growing up in a fundamentalist Christian home.
No. Absolutely not on the same page. Water baptism doesn't save anyone. The Bible is quite clear that you must respond to the gospel message by believing in Christ . . . believing that He died for our sins and that He rose again in order to receive eternal life. The issue in receiving salvation from the penalty of sin is trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross rather than on any meritorious works on your part.
No. Absolutely not on the same page. Water baptism doesn't save anyone. The Bible is quite clear that you must respond to the gospel message by believing in Christ . . . believing that He died for our sins and that He rose again in order to receive eternal life. The issue in receiving salvation from the penalty of sin is trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross rather than on any meritorious works on your part.
Thank you for chiming in on this Mike. I have never heard what Twin is getting at in other Christian circles.
To my knowledge, Twin is not a Universalist, so in what belief system does he/she fall in then?
Thank you for chiming in on this Mike. I have never heard what Twin is getting at in other Christian circles.
To my knowledge, Twin is not a Universalist, so in what belief system does he/she fall in then?
Twin.spin is a Lutheran. While Lutherans are said to not believe in double predestination in which God predestines some to eternal damnation, it's hard to see how his belief is much different from double predestination since he believes that faith is a gift from God and yet he also believes that some people are going to hell.
Since faith is necessary in order to be saved from the penalty of sin, and not all people are going to be saved, this would mean that if faith was a gift from God then God withholds faith from those people who are not saved which would in turn mean that God didn't intend for them to be saved.
Having said that, I think you should ask him directly and try to get him to clarify his precise belief system and why he believes what he does.
That's simply not what Scriptures teach ... for you are then making coming to faith a work of man and not by grace.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
The gift of God is not OUR RIGHTS TO CHOICES
That is how I know when concerning my children ... God's Word teaches that through baptism he works faith through the water and the Word.
well I will disagree with you my salvation is 100% by grace.. my rewards and my relationship with the rewarder.. is 100% by choices.. so you have it just as wrong as you claim everyone else does. are you only planning to sweak in barely? there are many that it appears think they deserve to be there but he doens't knwo them.. they never worked out their salvations with him..
you might get rights to work with the spirit wearing his bvd's but you won't ever see the Father , you won't ever be able to GO INside .. you and you risk not knowing him enough to really have faith in HIM that even requires death .
so you got it just as wrong as you claim everyone else does.
salvations is about relationship to him and his holy Spirit until you have overcome satan between your own ears by that testimony you create with him in his processes to overcome satan in your head and that is the only place that matters. until that process is completed it is still about " to those who overcome" and that is conditional ... so you got it wrong at least partially. that special prayer you stand on .. only gets you the right right to work out your SALVATION WITH HIM.... IT DOESN'T GUARENTEE YOU HAVE FAITH IN HIM WHO WILL SAVE YOU. .
"come let us reason together though your sins be as scarlet they shall be made white as snow"..... he isn't LYING and it still hasn't changed SINCE THE OLD TESTAMENT . you only get the right now by wear his bvd's.. but if you don't take advantage of your time and his spirit to work in you .... your heart will tell the story of who you trust most.. YOU OR HIM . and that is never a pretty picture.. trust me.
here is a bit more about Jesus and his rewards .
Twin.spin is a Lutheran. While Lutherans are said to not believe in double predestination in which God predestines some to eternal damnation, it's hard to see how his belief is much different from double predestination since he believes that faith is a gift from God and yet he also believes that some people are going to hell.
Since faith is necessary in order to be saved from the penalty of sin, and not all people are going to be saved, this would mean that if faith was a gift from God then God withholds faith from those people who are not saved which would in turn mean that God didn't intend for them to be saved.
Having said that, I think you should ask him directly and try to get him to clarify his precise belief system and why he believes what he does.
Interesting. This is the first time I've heard the term "double predestination". It is all so confusing, considering these are all Christian denominations. The whole concept of predestination is obscene to me in general. If predestination is the truth, what is the point of it all? Why even have a religion forum? I will have to ask him. Thanks Mike.
We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice, but we are predestined to holiness.
Through that which guides; corrects, reproves and teaches us in the right ways.
Curious if Mike 555 and Twin are on the same page on this one. In eight years on this forum I always thought they were.
Far from it. Mike is sorely off base on many Scriptural teachings. He is rejects almost every category from cover to cover .. from Genesis' creation account to Revelations' end times that teaches Amillennialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights
If I'm understanding Twin correctly, if an individual is baptized at the discretion of their parents as a baby in their church, the baptized individuals' place in Heaven is permanently reserved regardless of the choices they make later in their own lives.
This would go contrary of anything I was taught growing up in a fundamentalist Christian home.
And it would be contrary to Scripture for what you describe (in bold) sounds much like the false teaching of OSAS which most Lutheran denominations rejects.
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-03-2017 at 11:23 PM..
Interesting. This is the first time I've heard the term "double predestination". It is all so confusing, considering these are all Christian denominations. The whole concept of predestination is obscene to me in general. If predestination is the truth, what is the point of it all? Why even have a religion forum? I will have to ask him. Thanks Mike.
Double Predestination is the false teaching mostly attributed to John Calvin which many Reformed churches today subscribe to.
Double Predestination is basically based on human reason that concludes since Scripture teaches the believer is predestined to heaven by God, that God must then predestine the unbeliever to hell.
Careful reading however of Scripture and one must limit one self to that Scripture only teaches the predestination of the believer.
As Scripture teaches about the predestination only of the believer:
To God’s elect, ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
and
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."
No. Absolutely not on the same page. Water baptism doesn't save anyone. The Bible is quite clear that you must respond to the gospel message by believing in Christ . . . believing that He died for our sins and that He rose again in order to receive eternal life. The issue in receiving salvation from the penalty of sin is trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross rather than on any meritorious works on your part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights
Thank you for chiming in on this Mike. I have never heard what Twin is getting at in other Christian circles.
To my knowledge, Twin is not a Universalist, so in what belief system does he/she fall in then?
My belief is first and foremost Biblical then Lutheran. For example the above in bold is in fact false when scripture teaches for instance:
1) 1 Peter 3:21
“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
The main clause (Subject-verb-object) here is “Baptism saves you”. In the context, Peter says Noah and his family passing through the flood and being saved in the ark is a foreshadow, a “type”, which points forward to Baptism.
2) Romans 6:3-5
“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his
death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as
Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.”
Paul says here Baptism does something more, it unites us to Christ’s death and resurrection. In this we
die with Christ and rise again to new life. This is what Lutherans mean when we talk about the “old
Adam” dying. In a sense, Baptism delivers the Resurrection to us right now, even though it’s “end” (telos) is seen finally in the Resurrection.
At what age of your child did you know they were a Christian?
I over heard an adult tell their young child that they (the adult) did not think they (the child) was a Christian.
When my boy was in the 4th grade and came home with $75 and said he "collected" the money from his classmates during recess as he preached to them the doctrine of hell-fire and everlasting torment!
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