At what age of your child did you know they were a Christian? (Jehovah, beliefs)

[ditchlights]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Decision theology is the unbiblical alternative that the emphasis is on you, you, you instead of what God has done for me and in my stead ... as the previous post clearly exposes:

• "they had a choice" .... emphasis on you, you, you
• "at the age of accountability they had choices to make.." .... emphasis on you, you, you
• "their choice was do they want to do" .... emphasis on you, you, you
• "so they had choices to make.. .... emphasis on you, you, you
• for the most part they chose to serve him .... emphasis on you, you, you
• you pay for your sins.. .... emphasis on you, you, you

Originally Posted by twin.spin

As far as your basic question is concerned in context with predestination, I'm going to revert to those who have a much higher education understanding of Scripture with this summary of their answer:

The doctrine of election\predestination simply stated must not be included with any question concerning those whose eternal fate is that of damnation in hell. The Bible teaches that the fate of those being damned \ sent to hell is because of their fault for unbelief.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Decision theology argues that the individual has the natural ability to believe and make a decision for Christ in spite "original sin", which is what Jesus is teaching when stated[b] "flesh gives birth to flesh".

How is the indented section on the second quote not based on "decision theology"? The choice not to believe, at least based on that definition shown in quote #1, is most definitely a personal choice. Then again, if faith is purely a gift from God, and those not given the gift of faith are not capable of belief in God, it then is no longer a personal choice but a divine one.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Notice, it's not the water that saves, but it was the ark. We are saved THROUGH the water, not by it.

We don't say that the water saves, but the water connected THROUGH God's Word ... which happens in Baptism.

"... Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word" Ephesians 5:25-27

It is this "washed(ing) in other Scriptures which then baptism is being referred to when it speaks of:

Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up,be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

1 Corinthians 6
"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Hebrews 10:22
"let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings,
having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water."

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by ditchlights

How is the indented section on the second quote not based on "decision theology"? The choice not to believe, at least based on that definition shown in quote #1, is most definitely a personal choice. Then again, if faith is purely a gift from God, and those not given the gift of faith are not capable of belief in God, it then is no longer a personal choice but a divine one.

Scripture teaches that people being "flesh gives birth to flesh" can only but have no other choice than to be hostile towards God, so in that sense that's the only "decision theology". Otherwise faith is a one way action of God, not something that is a co-operative endeavor like alter-calls \ make your decision.

This is the 3rd article of faith concerning Sanctification:

I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; (aka decision theology)

(the next paragraph is the one way action of faith by God)

but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and
kept me in the true faith. In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the
whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers. On
the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in
Christ.

This is most certainly true.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Mike555

No. Absolutely not on the same page. Water baptism doesn't save anyone. The Bible is quite clear that you must respond to the gospel message by believing in Christ . . . believing that He died for our sins and that He rose again in order to receive eternal life. The issue in receiving salvation from the penalty of sin is trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross rather than on any meritorious works on your part.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

My belief is first and foremost Biblical then Lutheran. For example the above in bold is in fact false when scripture teaches for instance:

1) 1 Peter 3:21

“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

The main clause (Subject-verb-object) here is “Baptism saves you”. In the context, Peter says Noah and his family passing through the flood and being saved in the ark is a foreshadow, a “type”, which points forward to Baptism.


2) Romans 6:3-5

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his
death?

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as
Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.”

Paul says here Baptism does something more, it unites us to Christ’s death and resurrection. In this we
die with Christ and rise again to new life. This is what Lutherans mean when we talk about the “old
Adam” dying. In a sense, Baptism delivers the Resurrection to us right now, even though it’s “end” (telos) is seen finally in the Resurrection.

Let's take 1 Peter 3:21. Many people when seeing the word 'saved' or 'salvation' in the New Testament automatically assume that it always refers to eternal salvation. But that is not at all the case.

The Greek word is σῴζω - sózó which means 'I save, heal, preserve, rescue.' And while it does in most New Testament uses refer to eternal salvation, it also in other places, such as Matthew 8:23-25, 24:22, and 27:42 refers to temporal salvation. In those verses salvation or deliverance from physical death is being referred to.

In the case of 1 Peter 3:21, what is being referred to is not salvation or deliverance in the sense of eternal life, but salvation or deliverance from a bad conscience.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves (σώζει) you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter had just encouraged his readers in 1 Peter 3:13-17 to not fear and be troubled by those who intimidated them, and to keep a good conscience so that those who reviled their good behavior in Christ would be put to shame. With that in mind he said in v. 21 that baptism (water baptism) saves them with regard to a good conscience.

The first century Christians were being persecuted first by the Jews, and later by the Romans. Peter and Paul were both martyred during the Neronian persecutions. Peter was encouraging believers to make a public profession of their faith by getting water baptized. They were not eternally saved by getting baptized. They were already eternally saved. Peter was saying that by getting baptized they would save themselves from a bad conscience which would surely result if they were afraid to publicly declare their faith.

Commentary on 1 Peter 3:21.

Peter now applied to his readers the principle he set forth in verses 13-17 and illustrated in verses 18-20. He exhorted them to have the courage to commit themselves to a course of action by taking a public stand for Christ through baptism. The act of public baptism would ''save'' them from the temptation to sacrifice their good consciences in order to avoid persecution. For a first-century Christian, baptism meant he was following through on his commitment to Christ, regardless of the consequences.
Baptism does not save from sin, but from a bad conscience. Peter clearly taught that baptism was not merely a ceremonial act of physical purification, but (alla, making a strong contrast) the pledge (eperōtēma, also trans. ''appeal''; cf. NASB) of a good conscience (syneidēseōs; cf. v. 16) toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (cf. Rom. 6:3-5; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12). To make the source of salvation perfectly clear Peter added, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Peter 1:3).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary faculty, p. 852, Roger M. Raymer, Th.M

As always, context is absolutely vital in understanding what is being said. Peter was not teaching that water baptism saves anyone from sin and provides eternal life. He was exhorting his readers to not fear persecution and make a public declaration of their faith by getting water baptized and maintaining a good conscience by doing so.

When Peter was asked by the jailer what he needed to do in order to be saved, his response was ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household'' (Acts 16:31). Peter gave the gospel to the jailer, and later to his family, they all believed, and then they got baptized. They were saved because they believed the gospel. The water baptism came afterward and had nothing to do with their eternal salvation.

When Peter gave the gospel to Cornelius and his household, they were all saved because they believed the gospel message. Then they got water baptized. They were already eternally saved before ever getting baptized. (Acts chapter 10.)

As for Romans 6:3-5, it is not even referring to water baptism though some disagree. It is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit in which at the moment of faith in Christ Jesus the Holy Spirit places the believer into union with Christ and identifies him with Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection. The New Testament denies baptismal regeneration and instead presents water baptism as a public attestation to an already accomplished spiritual work as in Acts 10:44-48 and Acts 16:29-33.

And this is as far as I am going to go with this. Accept it or reject it. Your choice.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Let's take 1 Peter 3:21. Many people when seeing the word 'saved' or 'salvation' in the New Testament automatically assume that it always refers to eternal salvation. But that is not at all the case.
[snip]
Commentary on 1 Peter 3:21.
[snip]

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary faculty, p. 852, Roger M. Raymer, Th.M

[snip]

As for Romans 6:3-5,
[snip]

And this is as far as I am going to go with this. Accept it or reject it. Your choice.

Good, it should be rejected soundly and repeatedly!

People will only need to recall that distorting Scripture is like gangrene, it by nature does not confine itself to a single teaching. We all know of the ebb flow of other distorting of Scriptures that come from your way from or from Dallas Seminary (depending on topic):

To quote God, he correctly identifies who distort scriptures like Dallas Seminary as people who distort the return of Christ as they do the other Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16):

He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. (the Amillennial return of Christ)
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I am therefore not surprised that Baptism is distorted by a Calvinistic Seminary.

[bg7]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

That's simply not what Scriptures teach ... for you are then making coming to faith a work of man and not by grace.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

The gift of God is not OUR RIGHTS TO CHOICES

That is how I know when concerning my children ... God's Word teaches that through baptism he works faith through the water and the Word.

You chose to get them baptized. The baptism didn't just drop out of the sky. You chose to, and took them to church to get it done.

[bg7]

Originally Posted by ditchlights

How is the indented section on the second quote not based on "decision theology"? The choice not to believe, at least based on that definition shown in quote #1, is most definitely a personal choice. Then again, if faith is purely a gift from God, and those not given the gift of faith are not capable of belief in God, it then is no longer a personal choice but a divine one.

That's not the only logical flaw in his odd position.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by bg7

You chose to get them baptized. The baptism didn't just drop out of the sky. You chose to, and took them to church to get it done.

It is the fulfilling of the command of Jesus to "make disciples of all nations" and having faith in the promise by God (even for those not present at the time) when stated:

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

I knew when my children where when they were Baptized because the promise is from God

[jojo-50]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

The moment they were baptized as infants since coming to faith is a work of God, not the work of human decision. As Jesus said: "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

not true! baby are NOT Christians, first they have to be submerge in water, not sprinkled. then they have to be old enough to learn so that they can teach ,(Acts 2:37,38 Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”. Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit). they can't even repent for their sins, considering they haven't actually sinned yet! and they surely can't began to go out and teach. Jesus was sent here to Earth to NOT only save us, but to teach us by taking the lead, (1Pet.2:21).

he went under the water, everyone behind him should do the same. he taught the Apostles, before he sent them out to witness. and he old them to do the same ,(Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost). Paul taught the young man timothy, once he learn all he needed to, he was to then go out and start teaching the truth ,(2Tim. 2:2 You have heard me teach things that have been confirmed by many reliable witnesses. Now teach these truths to other trustworthy people who will be able to pass them on to others).

[augiedogie]

Mine were baptized at birth, grew up with weekly church attendance, sunday school at preschool age, confirmation classes. So theyve always known since infancy.