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Interesting. This is the first time I've heard the term "double predestination". The whole concept of predestination is obscene to me in general. If predestination is the truth, what is the point of it all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Double Predestination is the false teaching mostly attributed to John Calvin which many Reformed churches today subscribe to.
Double Predestination is basically based on human reason that concludes since Scripture teaches the believer is predestined to heaven by God, that God must then predestine the unbeliever to hell.
Careful reading however of Scripture and one must limit one self to that Scripture only teaches the predestination of the believer.
Your definition of "double predestination" is what my understanding was of "predestination" through my entire life. I was raised to believe you only go to one of two places in the end. If God did not choose to give one the gift of faith (resulting in everlasting life in Heaven), there was only one other alternative, everlasting damnation in Hell.
I was taught there is no middle ground. The concept of annihilation is not biblical, so that can be ruled out as well. So my question basically is, what is the eternal fate of someone who is not a predestined believer?
If I'm understanding Twin correctly, if an individual is baptized at the discretion of their parents as a baby in their church, the baptized individuals' place in Heaven is permanently reserved regardless of the choices they make later in their own lives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
And it would be contrary to Scripture for what you describe (in bold) sounds much like the false teaching of OSAS which most Lutheran denominations rejects.
I'm even more confused now. I thought you said earlier that "decision theology" was unbiblical. If MY choices in life can affect my final resting spot, then it is about me, me, me and not on Him, Him, Him.
It was GOD PUT TWO trees in the Garden for a reason! HE believes in OUR right to Chose.. anything less is slavery!
at some point we his children who wear his bvd's and become slaves to the spirit and to the Father's will and His word .. must grow up and chose to trust him at some point follow him and his lead of and in our freedom... when he is finished with our wedding clothes aka ( our directions for completing those wedding clothes because you know his plan and your part in it. ). It is his wisdom that does it in us .. puts in us what is needed to complete our faith. and his righteousness and his love that gets us there so we have no right to boast in our own ability to get us there not that there wasn't nothing I had to do . or become , nor was there not fruit I needed to produce and deeds I need to complete .
Rev 19:8
it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure"--for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Here is the remaining match.
1Ti 5:10
and she must be well attested for her good deeds, as one who has brought up children, shown hospitality, washed the feet of the saints, relieved the afflicted, and devoted herself to doing good in every way.
... that is when we becomes children of God , co heirs with Christ in his inheritance. He is seeking family not slaves still wearing his bvd's!!
I am having a huge issue with him in this very area , I am too afraid to chose .. what if I could be wrong with my choices.. do I trust his grace ? do I trust HIm and his work in me or when will I trust the work he has done in us when we chose to be his slaves... being his
"slaves" is so much easier I mean that is why the Israelites in the desert refused to go up the mountain and become a people who would have changed our world. when we are his slaves/ servant ..if you are a slave you don't have to think you just do and you think your not responsible for your choices.. well wrong... . well that is what we think or That is what we WANT to think.
Well he never wanted a nation of slaves... but servant kings where like native american Head men.. they were the servants of all. a slave and servant king are very different things the results might be kind of simular. I mean he could have had zillions of slaves and well it just wasn't what he wanted... he wants friends and friends can be so much more interesting and friends and family do such better jobs and way more creative at their jobs and have way more fun .. . . yes we have to start as His disciple( learner apprentice: think karate kids wax on, wax off ) / servant/ slave before we become king/ sons and able to handle our part of His plans. .
but you ain't doing that in only his bvd's. we all have choices to make. God invented choices..
Your definition of "double predestination" is what my understanding was of "predestination" through my entire life. I was raised to believe you only go to one of two places in the end. If God did not choose to give one the gift of faith (resulting in everlasting life in Heaven), there was only one other alternative, everlasting damnation in Hell.
I was taught there is no middle ground. The concept of annihilation is not biblical, so that can be ruled out as well. So my question basically is, what is the eternal fate of someone who is not a predestined believer?
It's refreshing to read this for much of what you were taught is correct based on Scripture.
I was raised to believe you only go to one of two places in the end. < Correct
I was taught there is no middle ground. < Correct
The concept of annihilation is not biblical, < Correct
I find interesting your first sentence because "single predestination" is taught in Scripture (as referenced) whereas "double predestination" is not. So I do not know how you came to that understanding.
As far as your basic question is concerned in context with predestination, I'm going to revert to those who have a much higher education understanding of Scripture with this summary of their answer:
The doctrine of election\predestination simply stated must not be included with any question concerning those whose eternal fate is that of damnation in hell. The Bible teaches that the fate of those being damned \ sent to hell is because of their fault for unbelief.
Jesus also speaks of predestination in the same terms. He speaks of it only in connection to eternal life of the believer, he never speaks about predestination to damnation of the unbeliever.
It therefore is solely the product of Calvinistic \ Arminians human reason to satisfy the answer the question of why some are saved vs why some are not when predestination is the premise being taken into account.
Jesus is speaking of the two births of a person and makes no distinction between the birth of spiritual and the physical in so far as "the kid needs to understand and believe" either before being physically born vs spiritually born
"Flesh gives birth to flesh, ----- physical
but the Spirit gives birth to spirit". ---- spiritual
yet you are requiring that "the kid needs to understand and believe" when concerning the spiritual.
By doing so, one is in effect making coming to faith no longer "by grace" but "a work of man" \ a "good work".
That is how I knew concerning my children when they were a believer of God.
4 of my kids after when the "flesh gave birth to flesh" ... "the Spirit gives birth to spirit" via "through the washingofrebirthand renewal by the Holy Spirit" ... baptism.
The Bible actually tells us that our sins were paid for at the cross....not at baptism, not at proclamation of faith.
My kids were saved because God saved them. we waited to baptise them until they professed, because we don't baptise non-believers. I would not presume that someone is saved until they profess faith.
I find interesting your first sentence because "single predestination" is taught in Scripture (as referenced) whereas "double predestination" is not. So I do not know how you came to that understanding.
Prior to seeing this thread, I had never heard the terms "single" or "double" predestination. I had only heard the term "predestination" and my interpretation of that word based on my fundamentalist Christian upbringing and many years spent in a non denominational Christian church were what you would define as "double predestination".
Quote:
It therefore is solely the product of Calvinistic \ Arminians human reason to satisfy the answer the question of why some are saved vs why some are not when predestination is the premise being taken into account.
If there are only two places one can go in the end, and faith is truly a gift from God bestowed only on certain people, I don't see how someone could believe in single predestination and not double predestination.
Last edited by mensaguy; 10-06-2017 at 11:53 AM..
Reason: fixed quote
I'm even more confused now. I thought you said earlier that "decision theology" was unbiblical. If MY choices in life can affect my final resting spot, then it is about me, me, me and not on Him, Him, Him.
Correct decision theology is unbiblical. Decision theology argues that the individual has the natural ability to believe and make a decision for Christ in spite "original sin", which is what Jesus is teaching when stated "flesh gives birth to flesh".
Therefore when Scripture states that "flesh" \ "the sinful mind" of individuals cannotdoso, it is refuting the Calvinist \ Arminianism teaching of decision theology:
"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so."
So to tie this in with the OP, I know when my children were because Baptism is an act of God by creating faith in the recipient ... not the unbiblical Calvinistic \ Arminianism view of Baptism being something we are doing for God for some public show.
The Bible actually tells us that our sins were paid for at the cross....not at baptism, not at proclamation of faith.
My kids were saved because God saved them. we waited to baptise them until they professed, because we don't baptise non-believers. I would not presume that someone is saved until they profess faith.
The Bible teaches that our sins were paid for at the cross ... and Baptism connects us to the cross and resurrection of Jesus Romans 6:3-5
“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as
Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
That is why Scripture teaches:
1 Peter 3:21
“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
The main clause (Subject-verb-object) here is “Baptism saves you”. In the context, Peter says Noah and his family passing through the flood and being saved in the ark is a foreshadow, a “type”, which points forward to Baptism.
The Bible teaches that our sins were paid for at the cross ... and Baptism connects us to the cross and resurrection of Jesus Romans 6:3-5
“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as
Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
That is why Scripture teaches:
1 Peter 3:21
“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
The main clause (Subject-verb-object) here is “Baptism saves you”. In the context, Peter says Noah and his family passing through the flood and being saved in the ark is a foreshadow, a “type”, which points forward to Baptism.
Notice, it's not the water that saves, but it was the ark. We are saved THROUGH the water, not by it.
Prior to seeing this thread, I had never heard the terms "single" or "double" predestination. I had only heard the term "predestination" and my interpretation of that word based on my fundamentalist Christian upbringing and many years spent in a non denominational Christian church were what you would define as "double predestination".
If there are only two places one can go in the end, and faith is truly a gift from God bestowed only on certain people, I don't see how someone could believe in single predestination and not double predestination.
A: I believe because Scripture teaches such based on God's terms, whereas the alternative is on terms of human rational.
Last edited by mensaguy; 10-06-2017 at 11:54 AM..
Reason: fixed quote
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