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It's easy to selectively reject and attack Biblical doctrines, but, in doing so, one loses the ability to credibly support their claims of belief in Jesus Christ or any other Biblical doctrine of which they approve. This has nothing to do with "Bible worship," as so many detractors claim, but, rather, one's truth standard for life. (Fire away 'haters'!)
This would be true if the standard of truth were the Bible instead of the Guide Jesus promised. Since you don't believe in that guide you are stuck with the inconsistencies and barbarities that are part of the Bible
Amen.
My Christianity is based entirely on science and my personal experience of God. It should provide support for those who have trouble with the science and the Bible. I admit I am bewildered that it doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad
The question of course becomes, can YOUR personal experience be replicated by any one else? What methodology would that one use? Does it work every time?
I suspect it can, but it took me 18+ years of dedicated effort eventually using biofeedback to attain deeper altered states under conscious control ensuring that I could trust my experiences as legitimate. I was seeking a very different outcome than the one I ultimately experienced and it was life-changing, to say the least. The original experience was not the only time I experienced the other consciousness so completely, but it was not reliably consistent for each meditation. It also became more and more difficult to replicate as my body aged and my control over my autonomic system deteriorated. But the presence of the consciousness I encountered has remained with me to this very day whether or not I meditate.
This would be true if the standard of truth were the Bible instead of the Guide Jesus promised. Since you don't believe in that guide you are stuck with the inconsistencies and barbarities that are part of the Bible
Who do you think you are to tell someone else they don't believe in the Holy Spirit or in the guidance of the Holy Spirit just because they recognize the divine authority of the Bible as orthodox Christianity has from the beginning of the church-age and into the present. You are way too full of yourself.
I once pointed out to you that the book of Revelation states that the revelation was given by God the Father to Jesus who communicated it to John. You pretty much stated that it didn't say anything you needed to know, or words to that effect. You are the one who is in error. Not those who recognize the authority of God's written word.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-23-2017 at 09:25 PM..
Who do you think you are to tell someone else they don't believe in the Holy Spirit or in the guidance of the Holy Spirit just because they recognize the divine authority of the Bible as orthodox Christianity has from the beginning of the church-age and into the present. You are way too full of yourself.
As Christians who believe Jesus and His teaching that God IS agape, anything in the Bible that contradicts or is inconsistent with the Holy Spirit of agape (Who IS God) is NOT the Divine word of God, period. We have told you many times what the characteristics of the Holy Spirit are as described by Jesus and His Apostles and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. You ignore them and pretend that you have excuses or explanations for why what is in the Bible contradicts that Spirit. Your excuses and explanations fall on deaf ears for those who KNOW the true nature of God as revealed by Jesus. Your reliance on the words "written in ink" show you do NOT accept the guidance of the Comforter to the Truth God has "written in our hearts."
Quote:
I once pointed out to you that the book of Revelation states that the revelation was given by God the Father to Jesus who communicated it to John. You pretty much stated that it didn't say anything you needed to know, or words to that effect. You are the one who is in error. Not those who recognize the authority of God's written word.
I once pointed out to you that anyone who thinks they actually know what Revelation is all about is filled with vanity and hubris. We recognize the authority of the Comforter (Holy Spirit of agape) and Jesus the Living Word of God to lead us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." What support do you have that what was "written in ink" by men (inspired or not) is actually the infallible, inerrant word of God?
As Christians who believe Jesus and His teaching that God IS agape, anything in the Bible that contradicts or is inconsistent with the Holy Spirit of agape (Who IS God) is NOT the Divine word of God, period. We have told you many times what the characteristics of the Holy Spirit are as described by Jesus and His Apostles and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. You ignore them and pretend that you have excuses or explanations for why what is in the Bible contradicts that Spirit. Your excuses and explanations fall on deaf ears for those who KNOW the true nature of God as revealed by Jesus. Your reliance on the words "written in ink" show you do NOT accept the guidance of the Comforter to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." I once pointed out to you that anyone who thinks they actually know what Revelation is all about is filled with vanity and hubris. We recognize the authority of the Comforter (Holy Spirit of agape) and Jesus the Living Word of God to lead us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." What support do you have that what was "written in ink" by men (inspired or not) is actually the infallible, inerrant word of God?
How true, Mystic.
I've asked before and ask again how fundamentalists who think Scripture is both divine and epic can have
1. Four different views of the End Times
2. Four different views about the nature of Atonement
3. Four different views of Paul
4. Four different views about the Eternal Security of the Believer
5. Four views on Hell
The reason they exist is because even if the Bible claimed inerrancy and infallibility (it doesn't), the people reading it are neither infallible nor inerrant and all of us wind up being incorrect about more than one thing. What we never see is questioning of our own ideas---which is one of my own primary concerns. The more certain one is the more I try to drill into that concrete barrier to provide enough doubt to make people THINK.
In Acts 28 Peter proclaims "God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean." In other words, the decision to include Gentiles in the faith was based on Peter’s experience—observing what the Spirit was doing in their lives and the lives of those they had previously regarded as “unclean” that led to the disciples deciding to break with both the law of Moses and with centuries of religious tradition.
Peter and the early church’s basis for this was not based on a careful exegesis of Scripture (as Protestant theology would stress), nor was it based on following their religious tradition (as Catholic theology would). On the contrary, they were breaking with their previous understanding of Scripture, breaking with their religion, and breaking with centuries of tradition, and instead going with their experience, with what they observed the Spirit was doing.
The Bible as they had it COULD be contradicted if it involved harm to others.
All good things can become hurtful. Families are good things, intended to be safe and loving environments where we learn to love ourselves and others. However, when twisted by sin, families can be profoundly damaging and abusive, leaving lifelong scars. Scripture is also good, intended to lead us to love. However it too, can be read in an abusive way. As Paul wrote “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death” (Rom 7: 10).
I read somewhere that Martin Luther described the Bible as the manger in which Christ is found. Without the manger you will not find Christ, but you dare not confuse Christ with the manger. We love the Bible because through it we encounter Jesus, but we do not have a relationship with a book, but with the living Word, Jesus
Christ.
History has demonstrated over and over that rather than making us “safe,” an unquestioning way of reading Scripture puts us on a certain path to violence and bloodshed. As Pascal has said, “Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.” Uncertainty is not something to be feared. It’s the other way around: Uncertainty and questioning are virtues to be embraced, because it is precisely our not being certain that keeps us all safe, and it is faithful questioning that moves us forward.
Faith is not about certainty; it is about humility and trust.
I've asked before and ask again how fundamentalists who think Scripture is both divine and epic can have
1. Four different views of the End Times
2. Four different views about the nature of Atonement
3. Four different views of Paul
4. Four different views about the Eternal Security of the Believer
5. Four views on Hell
The reason they exist is because even if the Bible claimed inerrancy and infallibility (it doesn't), the people reading it are neither infallible nor inerrant and all of us wind up being incorrect about more than one thing. What we never see is questioning of our own ideas---which is one of my own primary concerns. The more certain one is the more I try to drill into that concrete barrier to provide enough doubt to make people THINK.
In Acts 28 Peter proclaims "God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean." In other words, the decision to include Gentiles in the faith was based on Peter’s experience—observing what the Spirit was doing in their lives and the lives of those they had previously regarded as “unclean” that led to the disciples deciding to break with both the law of Moses and with centuries of religious tradition.
Peter and the early church’s basis for this was not based on a careful exegesis of Scripture (as Protestant theology would stress), nor was it based on following their religious tradition (as Catholic theology would). On the contrary, they were breaking with their previous understanding of Scripture, breaking with their religion, and breaking with centuries of tradition, and instead going with their experience, with what they observed the Spirit was doing.
The Bible as they had it COULD be contradicted if it involved harm to others.
All good things can become hurtful. Families are good things, intended to be safe and loving environments where we learn to love ourselves and others. However, when twisted by sin, families can be profoundly damaging and abusive, leaving lifelong scars. Scripture is also good, intended to lead us to love. However it too, can be read in an abusive way. As Paul wrote “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death” (Rom 7: 10).
I read somewhere that Martin Luther described the Bible as the manger in which Christ is found. Without the manger you will not find Christ, but you dare not confuse Christ with the manger. We love the Bible because through it we encounter Jesus, but we do not have a relationship with a book, but with the living Word, Jesus
Christ.
History has demonstrated over and over that rather than making us “safe,” an unquestioning way of reading Scripture puts us on a certain path to violence and bloodshed. As Pascal has said, “Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.” Uncertainty is not something to be feared. It’s the other way around: Uncertainty and questioning are virtues to be embraced, because it is precisely our not being certain that keeps us all safe, and it is faithful questioning that moves us forward.
Faith is not about certainty; it is about humility and trust.
As Christians who believe Jesus and His teaching that God IS agape, anything in the Bible that contradicts or is inconsistent with the Holy Spirit of agape (Who IS God) is NOT the Divine word of God, period. We have told you many times what the characteristics of the Holy Spirit are as described by Jesus and His Apostles and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. You ignore them and pretend that you have excuses or explanations for why what is in the Bible contradicts that Spirit. Your excuses and explanations fall on deaf ears for those who KNOW the true nature of God as revealed by Jesus. Your reliance on the words "written in ink" show you do NOT accept the guidance of the Comforter to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." I once pointed out to you that anyone who thinks they actually know what Revelation is all about is filled with vanity and hubris. We recognize the authority of the Comforter (Holy Spirit of agape) and Jesus the Living Word of God to lead us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." What support do you have that what was "written in ink" by men (inspired or not) is actually the infallible, inerrant word of God?
I was replying to Nateswift, but since you want to butt in, you DON'T believe Jesus and the apostles, and you don't know the true nature of God. You reject everything in the Bible which you don't like and claim that the Holy Spirit is guiding you to the truth. You are far, far from the truth and are deeply deluded. Nor do you demonstrate any of the ''characteristics of the Holy Spirit'' in your posts on this forum.
Furthermore, your made up criteria for deciding what is true in the Bible and what is not by whether it contradicts the Spirit is a crock. If you believed what the apostles wrote you would have believed John who stated clearly that the revelation he was given was ''The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.'' (Revelation 1:1-2).
I have no doubt that you personally are utterly incapable of understanding the book of Revelation. To understand it you must understand the Old Testament which you don't. The book of Revelation is full of prophecy which according to your false standard for determining what is true in the Bible ''is inconsistent with the Holy Spirit of agape. . . described by Jesus and His Apostles.'' Yet Jesus gave the Revelation to John and it is quite clear about the judgments which are to come on this world. You reject what it says because you refuse to believe that what it says is consistent with God's character.
As Christians who believe Jesus and His teaching that God IS agape, anything in the Bible that contradicts or is inconsistent with the Holy Spirit of agape (Who IS God) is NOT the Divine word of God, period.
I will add
anything that is jealous, mean, indignant, greedy, resentful, unkind, impure, unloving...is of the lower ego-self...it is not
from the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, God's Spirit, the Divine One...whatever the name.
Ha, I picture a little girl with flowers to her nose about 4-5 looking up into your eyes saying,
'God is just love, daddy."
-- "You don't know Revelations, you don't know the Old Testament...you have no right to say that, honey."
I will add
anything that is jealous, mean, indignant, greedy, resentful, unkind, impure, unloving...is of the lower ego-self...it is not
from the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, God's Spirit, the Divine One...whatever the name.
Ha, I picture a little girl with flowers to her nose about 4-5 looking up into your eyes saying,
'God is just love, daddy."
-- "You don't know Revelations, you don't know the Old Testament...you have no right to say that, honey."
God has many attributes. Love, mercy, justice, righteousness, holiness...
God has many attributes. Love, mercy, justice, righteousness, holiness...
All of which are consonant with every other characteristic. God does not have multiple personality disorder.
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